I no longer play with Joey

I'm sorry you're feeling this way because I know how it feels.  I went thru a long period of being afraid of Willow and at times my husband still doesn't trust her. 
 
I don't know exactly why you are feeling this way but I can say this.  You want to keep the rough house type play to a minimum.  There is something called play aggression where they get too excited and Willow actually will bite and has bitten me (not serious where it required medical treatment but still bruised me).  So, the stares your seeing may be that.  Also, it's not a good idea with dogs who tend to growl or show issues to play any type of tug game or rough game.  Some say it's OK as long as you start and stop, but again, I find it's quickly gets out of control with Willow.  Or, I should say it used to.  But, outside her play can still get too rough really fast. 
 
I could post more but I'll wait to see if you want me to.

Willowchow is right on the roughhousing thing. Terriers are tenacious. They really are. Have you read much about the breed? After having a really good walker hound for years, I ended up with a darling terrier who I often call a "terror" simply because she can be one. She's such a good girl, but she can be so tenacious, too.
 
My male, who's a terrier, too (Ellie's littermate), as Willowchow also knows, can and has done his own decision-making thinking on things and, as a result, he bit my niece not long ago. I blame myself, of course, but I also know that he made a quick decision on his own and it was disastrous, of course. It was snappy, bossy, and scary.
 
You'll have to keep a journal and note when you see the Hard Stares and things. There could be times it's true and he's staring hard, and there could be times that you're thinking he is because of how things have gone before.

pretty much everyone strongly recommends against rough-housing with your dog. It's just too risky. Play controlled games of tug-of-war instead, or fetch, or hide n seek, or training games.

Thanks for the responses guys/gals.

Last night I played fetch with him. I felt much more comfortable with this. No stare downs and only slight play growling.

After fetch I jumped around the house with him. He barked and whinned, but I still felt in control and comfortable with his reaction.

You're all correct with the no tugging thing. That seems to be what causes the more aggressive like growling and jumping and staring. Plus, even if he isn't intending to be aggressive, I'm uncomforable and I'm sure he senses it.

My husband doesn't seem to be concerned with his play growling. Should I allow him to continue rough housing with Joey? That seems to be their bonding time. I read your responses to him and he seemed very disappointed.

One good sign though: if I get hurt (always by accident) I say ouch and Joey puts his tail between his legs and licks my hand.

I would say if your husband is OK with what he's doing as far as he's not making contact with his skin and hurting him, etc. and he's not feeling intimidated by him then he should keep playing.  My husband and I also have different comfort levels and play differently with her. 

Sorry, it's absolutely false that tug causes aggression. This has been shown in a study specifically trying to address that issue, which you can read in its entirety here - [linkhttp://bio.univet.hu/salve/behav/cases/AABS_Rooney_dog_play.pdf#search='study%20golden%20retrievers%20aggression%20tug%20of%20war']http://bio.univet.hu/salve/behav/cases/AABS_Rooney_dog_play.pdf#search='study%20golden%20retrievers%20aggression%20tug%20of%20war'[/link]
 
In the study, scientists performed temperament tests on a group of Golden Retrievers before and after playing games of tug with the testers. They were evaluated for dominance, confidence, obedience. One group of dogs was allowed to "win" the games of tug, one group "lost" to the human testers. They were looking for whether the dogs would show more dominant behavior after the game, particularly after winning, and they did not find that. In fact, what they found is that the dogs showed more obedience and more "playful attention seeking" after playing tug. There was no difference in dominance between dogs who won or lost, but dogs who were allowed to win showed more involvement in the game and more interest in playing again. The researchers concluded that tug of war games with dogs definitely did NOT cause or enhance dominance in the dogs, but they felt that, as had been shown in other animal species, games may reflect (not cause or increase) reexisting dominance related issues in the dog-human relationship. Interestingly, they also found that dog-human games are less competitive than dog-dog games, and dogs seem to realize that games with humans are playful and are not battles for social status. It really is an interesting study, and very accessible if you skip over the tables and figures.
 
To the OP, I think unfortunately you have let your relationship with your dog become poisoned with fear and anxiety. I hope this doesn't come off as mean or patronizing, but it sounds like a lot of what you perceive as the dog's issues with aggression are really just your issues... and it sounds like deep down you know that, too. Work on feeling comfortable with your dog rather than constantly looking for problems. It might do you well to do some activites with him where it's a little more loosey-goosey than a formal obedience class... go hiking or swimming!

Well, the study can conclude what it does.  But, I clearly see my dog getting more and more aggressive as the play gets rougher.  And, I don't think it's really a fair study considering the only breed they used is a golden??  You can hardly compare a golden to a chow or terrier mix at all.  They aren't even on the same playing field temperment wise to begin with let alone after playing.

Also, I don't think any of us think it "causes" the problems.  But, if you've already got a dog with issues and you play rough and tug it does make it come out even if the dog is not meaning to hurt anyone.
 
And, just because you read one study that concludes it doesn't cause problems you cannot state it "absolutely" doesn't cause anything.  I'm sure studies concluding just the opposite can be dug up. 

Well, obviously you don't have to believe me or this scientific study, but did you read it? They addressed the points you raised... they acknowledged that they had only used gun dogs (although we all know there are dominant and aggressive Goldens out there), that there were breed differences that could possibly affect play, and that it's possible that "problem dogs" may have problems with tug, since pet behaviorists, who see a disproportionate number of aggressive dogs, claim that's so. "However, questionnaire surverys (Jagoe and Serpell, 1996; Rooney, 1999) and home-based studies (Rooney, 1999) of mixed-breed samples have found no correlations between the playing of tug-of-war and dominance, and so, give us no reason to assume that the current findings are breed specific." They also note that in squirrel monkeys, rats, and humans, play is "not a major determinant" in dominance relationships. If you can find a study that shows tug of war causes dominance problems I'd love to take a look at it. Until then I find scientific studies are more reliable than anecdotal evidence, particuarly in the emotionally charged realm of dog ownership. A lot of times when people play tug with their dogs they mistake excitement for aggression. Dogs often growl when they play tug - that is play behavior, not aggression. As Mic Foster once pointed out in a thread about tug, what often happens is that people play tug with their dog, the dog growls in excitement, the human enthuses verbally, the dog perceives it's being praised for growling and excitement so they increase that behavior, the owner freaks out and thinks the dog is becoming aggressive.

I don't have issues with Maddi as far as aggression goes, but I will say that I find tug-of-war to be a great reward for good behavior and also a great outlet for pent-up energy.
 
I do think dogs need to be taught limits before you begin playing. Maddi knows that when I say "Out" or "Drop it", I mean it. If she doesn't comply, I walk away (after all, she wants me to play tug with her... she doesn't really want the toy).
 
I do think it's also a personal choice. If someone's not comfortable playing tug with their dog I think that's okay (not that it matters what I think). For me, since my dog really could care less about fetch, tug gives me a nice, interactive game to play with her.

Maybe this is a little OT, but when we took Sassy & Buffy to a behaviorist for the fighting amongst each other, the woman noted that Sassy had a very high prey-drive.  She felt that some of the problem was Sassy was sort of "chasing Buffy down" and poor Buffy would get scared, stop and turn and bam, they'd be in a fight.  So, she suggested many things, but one of them was using a device she had (can't remember what it was called - lunge whip?) and play with Sassy to get some of the pent up prey-drive out of her.  So, rather than squelch the behavior, she had us encourage it but only under the right circumstances. 

I'm sorry that you feel this way about your Joey. 
 
First I'd like to say that I refuse to roughhouse or even wrestle aggressively with my dogs.  I don't think it's fair to the dog.  I have a simple rule when it comes to one-on-one play.  I don't use my hands, more specifically my thumbs and he doesn't use his mouth.  So at times we will "head wrestle."  Jostling for position on top of the other's neck.  I don't let this get above a "mildly excited" level.  If I hear any vocalization the game is over.
 
Secondly, I think it's Patricia McConnel that wrote "how to be the leader of the pack and have your dog love you for it."  Great booklet.  Please get a copy.  In the meantime I suggest only games with an intermediary...a toy, a frisbee, a tug ball, a squeaky stuffed toy. 
 
You can use the toy as a reward, as if you were following NILIF protocol. 

ORIGINAL: jones



To the OP, I think unfortunately you have let your relationship with your dog become poisoned with fear and anxiety. I hope this doesn't come off as mean or patronizing, but it sounds like a lot of what you perceive as the dog's issues with aggression are really just your issues... and it sounds like deep down you know that, too. Work on feeling comfortable with your dog rather than constantly looking for problems. It might do you well to do some activites with him where it's a little more loosey-goosey than a formal obedience class... go hiking or swimming!

We do go hiking an swimming alot. I mean at least twice a week. That's another thing. He doesn't like to play fetch or frisby outside - too many distractions, but he does like to run and dodge with me. Occasionally he gets a little too excited and jumps and nips my elbow. I do have to be more careful with him outside off leash because he gets a little rough.

Honestly, I think I do try to over train him, because I read too much and hear too much about training philosophies. Over the last few months I've been loosen up my expectations, thanks to the advice of many people on this forum.

But I do agree with Willow Chow in that the study was done on golden retrievers. GR are obviously not as stubborn and self willed as terriers or lhasa's both of which my dog has in him.

I feel more comfortable playing fetch or tag or even "roll around in blankets." I'll leave the rough housing to my husband.

This is the first terrier, or really small dog I've ever owned. Every dog I've had before this was a spaniel (1 english springer, and 2 brittneys). Well, and one lab/mastiff mix. I'm not used to terriers and their stubbornness. Actually he fits into my life style quite well, but I'm still not used to his behavior.

I love Joey dearly. I'm closer to him than any dog I've ever had. This may sound silly, but I think part of our connection is due to that he is not an all obedient dog. He's more human like than the dogs I've been blessed with in the past.

One of the reasons that instructors ask students not to play tug with dogs is the very point that jones reminded us of (what Mic said).  I agree that it is best to wait until the dog has a sense of the fact that the humans are in charge of the pack!  This is not because I think that dogs get more aggressive when they play tug, but because the humans need to understand the game LOL.  Incidentally, in a recent study that examined whether it was harmful to allow dogs to sleep in bed with their owners, the conclusion was that it was not harmful except if the dogs were allowed to do it within the first 2 months.  Go figure.
As we all know, science is not an exact science sometimes - after all, how many times have you heard studies suggest one thing, then a year later another study comes along that suggests another conclusion.
I read studies, but am also influenced by my own observations in the field - and the observations of trainers and behaviorists are often what prompts the studies in the first place.
From personal experience, I have never had a dog get more aggressive from playing tug, but I have had dogs that get more aroused and do the growlies thing.  When you hear that, you need to observe the *whole dog*, not just the noise, to determine whether the game is too much for him.

I don't consider Tug to be rough-housing at all, nor is it dangerous or aggression-evoking. Rough housing to me is actually physically wrestling with the dog, and allowing the dog to play-bite humans. Tug can be scary to some people because the dogs often growl and seem to be acting aggressively-- but it's PLAY.
If you set a few ground rules Tug is one of the best ways to teach a dog self-control. Rule 1) if dog's teeth hit human flesh game ends; Rule 2) dog only grabs at tug toy if given the command (get it, tug, bite), Rule 3) dog releases tug toy on command (out, drop it, break). So you can "activate" the dog, work the dog into a frenzy, and "deactivate" the dog, and the "activate" the dog again. Most dogs, even very young puppies, catch onto the rules very quickly because the reward, the game, is of such high-value to most dogs they'll do anything for it.