Becoming part of the pack?

Hey there-
I know a little about packs - not too much, but I'll share what I've got!
For one thing, dogs consider the humans they live with to be their pack. You've had her since she was a pup, so you & your fiance are already established as her pack. For a dog, belonging to a pack is the human equivalent of having a network of family & friends. Our family & friends fill our need for socialization & protection. Without them we would feel very alone & insecure. With you & your fiance as her packmates, especially since you said you spoil her (which I interpret to mean you spend a lot of time playing with her & showing her affection) she's probably getting those needs filled.
It is certainly important for her to be able to have some contact with other dogs, but like anything else she'll tell you when she's had enough. Just like people, some dogs are happy with a small pack & don't need to socialize outside of it. However, it's great for her to get some exposure to other dogs so she knows how to behave around them. It also gives her a chance to just be a dog & not have to conform to what humans want her to be. If she doesn't socialize too much with other dogs she just may not have found one she likes yet. Our little beagle is like that. Some dogs she completely ignores & others she wants to romp with from the get-go. Still others she looks at like they're from another planet...
As far as being timid - I guess that's just how some dogs are. Ours is generally pretty bold, but once in a while she cowers at the simplest things (the broom, for example).
Hope this helps a bit. If you need more try a search on Google. There's tons of info out there!
Nicole

I think it all comes down to security. It sounds as though your dog is enjoying the ease with which she understands the other dogs she's living with. My corgi has been an only dog as well as a dog sharing a house and a family with other dogs. She doesn't mind being an only dog, but she does seem happier when she's got other dogs to hang out with. She plays games with them that she doesn't play with people and that kind of thing. But I've found that she likes some pack situations better than others. She's most happy when the dogs in her pack are all balanced, well-socialised dogs that have a clear pack hierarchy in which she knows for certain where she belongs. She often seems relieved when a larger dog asserts its dominance, I guess because it takes any worries out of her paws and also tells her exactly where her place is. I've noticed that she's also more confident with more dogs in her pack. My mother and I walk our 3 dogs together, and that presents a pretty intimidating front to other dogs we meet. Even if we're all friendly, other dogs hesitate and try to avoid us. She's never been so far down the hierarchy as she is now. Right now she's at the very bottom, so if something is scary, she'll look at the humans, then the other two dogs and if no one is worried, then she figures there's probably not a lot to be worried about. Maybe, being a timid dog, your dog is benefitting from feeling more secure with a larger pack.

One thing I found by accident with introducing a dog to the pack was walks...off lead. I live in San Diego and we have a substanial dog park on an island so it is relatively safe. So I have a pack of four dogs. I have introduced my dogs to numerous dogs. Sometimes there are little spats. sometimes not. dogs being dogs. but one time i was walking my pack in the dog park off lead. and I this staffie came up I started a conversation with the owner who was fostering the dog. We then continued are walk. now the bahvior my dogs exhibited towards this dog was different than i had ever seen. They accepted her almost immediatly while we were walking. I then thought it must have been a special dog. so i noticed the spats when we would go to smaller park where walking was not an option. but when we would walk with other dogs at the big park they always were almost accepted. immediatly. Now this was my own little study. But my conclusion was that the dogs were free to interact. so there was zero tension that can be caused by leashes. then #2 was that walking is a major part of what dogs do as a pack. so maybe just going for some walks. also communal activites like eating and sleeping. but i keep playing ball a seperate activity for my dogs.

Saphire,
Your dog is obviously benefitting from being around other dogs. Dogs can teach each other things in a moment that humans need several weeks to teach to a dog.

Gunny,
I suggest you always walk with your dogs at the park and not stand around chatting like most do. When you stand you creat territory that makes your dogs feel protective, when you walk you give them the chance to avoid confrontation. Dogs have three reactions to fear they can freeze, attack or run. When you fence them in a small dog park or put them on a leash you remove the ability to run so attack is usually the next option.

Dogs have three reactions to fear they can freeze, attack or run. When you fence them in a small dog park or put them on a leash you remove the ability to run so attack is usually the next option.

Thank you for that quote.  My rescue org could not figure out why one of their foster (Sassy, picture below) would attack and bite other dogs at Petsmart's dog showing.  At home in the backyard and unleashed she is perfectly ok meeting new dogs.  Tomorrow I am taking Sassy on 2 home visits to potential adopters.  I was nervous about this aggression because each of the families have other dogs.  I will introduce Sassy to the other dogs off-leash in their secure fenced backyard.

Cesar Millan says:
 
"The Power of the Pack
I am especially proud of tonight#%92s The Power of the Pack episode because it gives me a chance to show, in a little bit more depth, how a stable pack can have a powerful influence over an unstable dog.
Dogs instinctively understand that if they are unbalanced, they can get hurt by other members of an otherwise balanced pack. And their survival instincts always lead them back toward balance. (If only it were so simple for us humans!)
An animal#%92s natural “goal” is to be connected, to live harmoniously, grounded, and balanced. And as hard as it may be for our human egos to accept, animals don#%92t need us to achieve that state.
When a troubled dog changes from an unbalanced to a balanced state, he doesn#%92t question the transformation. He lives in the moment and doesn#%92t dwell on the past. That#%92s something humans can learn from animals, if we take the time to observe them."
 
"Leadership and hierarchy are natural in the animal world. Their places in the pack start to become established as soon as it enters the world. So it amazes me when I have clients who give up some of their comforts of home to the dog! The client will say, “Oh, that#%92s Baxter#%92s couch” or “My husband and I can#%92t even see each other in our bed because the dogs take up all the room in the middle.” Wait a minute! You paid for your house! You go to work to pay for that couch, and that bed and yet you can#%92t use it because it “belongs” to the dog? Something#%92s very wrong there. If this describes you, then it#%92s time to take back your own home.
Once again, it all comes back to establishing a leadership position. You must feel in your bones that you are the pack leader in the house, and project that calm-assertive energy. If you assert true leadership, your dog will not be sad, or hate you, or resent you, even if you take back the place on the sofa. But you have to really mean it. Having a leader is hardwired into your dog#%92s brain – that#%92s what he both needs and wants. Take advantage of that and go ahead"
 
And:
 
"In nature, dogs have only one pack leader. The followers naturally fall into rank depending on the strength of the energy they are born with. Every once in a while, a higher-ranked dog will get sick, and a subordinate will fight or kill him to move up a notch. That#%92s nature.
However, I do not believe we should ever nurture dominance among domesticated dogs. First of all, it can be dangerous. A person or another animal could get seriously hurt. When we nurture dominance, it#%92s not that different from nurturing insecurity, nervousness, tension, or fear. In the wild, it#%92s a natural state, but there are consequences when dogs live with us behind walls.
In my pack, I am the leader, number one; and they#%92re all number two, all considered equals. When I#%92m away, my assistants become number one, but all the dogs remain in that number two state. We don#%92t want to create number three, four, five, because that can create a chain reaction of dominance, which can lead to violent fights."
 
A dog without a pack is like a human without society

I brought up the 'pack' issue under Problems and Habits with the thread titled "Male Dominance (Marvin Issue)" because I wanted an understanding of a dog behavior that needs to be modified.  I was happy with comments and it helped me change what I was doing.  Now you come along and say the total opposite leaving me very distressed and not knowing what to do and how to handle the situation.  My career is not dog training.  I have my own dogs and also foster dogs for the humane society so I have a number of different dogs that live with me, sometimes a very long time.  All the fosters come with behaviorial issue and once their addressed and corrected, I move on without another thought.  I just want harmony in my house and admittedly that happens most of the time.  Fostering is so rewarding.  I have a lot of experience dealing with and LIVING with all sort of dogs but sometimes I get into situations that are overwhelming (like with Marvin).  What I want out of the participants of this site is true real experience and what I hope to give back is the same. Dogs have been with us since we were living in caves.  In all that time humane still do not have an understanding of dog behavior.  I am starting to question all Authorities on dog behavior.  Do any of the experts know what they are talking about?

Do any of the experts know what they are talking about?

Possibly - ever read Coppinger?

Ray (and his colleagues and students) have published over fifty papers on his dog research. His favorite publication, however, is the book Fishing Dogs, a humorous and iconoclastic look at dogs, fishermen and professors. His latest book, co-authored with Lorna Coppinger, is DOGS: A Startling New Understanding of Canine Origin, Behavior, and Evolution, to be published by Scribner, NY, in 2001. His lecture trips around the world to talk about dogs are always supplemented by a day or two searching the waters for the perfect fish.
r

 
How does this help me today.

Anyways, is she starting to act more like a dog because she is part of the pack? Is a pack important in a dog's life?

Packs are not that important to our dogs at all...a wild feral dog (the original dogs) do not form packs and normally live a semi-solitary life.  Domestic dogs evolved to be scavengers, not big game hunters.  A scavenger does not require a pack to survive.

It could be with Sapphir that she is feeling more comfortable in the new environment.  She may also be getting some rules in the house, when a dog has rules they become more confident.  Sometimes overly spoiled dogs with no boundries do not gain confidence....or in some cases can become a real pain.[]

spiritdogs, That book Dogs by Raymond Coppinger was fantastic and really got rid of that pack mentality in my mind. Especially reading that natural dogs that still live wild in African communities do not form packs and instead live a semi-solitary life.

Packing behavior is above the genes and is only done in times of necessary. Wolves pack only to take down big game and are normally consist of mother, father and pups...that doesn't make the mother and father dominant....just parents!!
Studies done on wolf packs in wolf parks were artificial and not true to real packing behavior...plus, wolves are not as social as our dogs are. Actually for our dogs to be able to go to a dog park and just play with other dogs is really an unwolflike social skill.

Sapphire04, I think you would really find the book "Dogs" by Raymond Coppinger an eye opener.
To be a dog is not to be a wolf. That is my favorite statement
in this book.[]

Just to add, I have always had a multi dog house hold, the dogs we have and have had in the past were all given to us when they were adults.  We never think of ourselves as "alpha"...dogs don't think that way.  You just show them the rules of the house, a default behavior like sit and with obedience and social bonding we have never ever had a problem. 

Also, dogs do not view humans as dogs...they know we are humans.  We have had as many as 7 diogs living together...we have never had a problem because we never over think things with our dogs.  We make them happy, we have rules and they love us in return.  Trust me, a pack of wolves are not training each other and making the other wolves sit before eating a deer! lol  actually the older wolves will sit back and let the younger wolves eat first to get strength.  That is their number one responsibilty feeding and carrying on the family genes...and it is in their best interest to make sure the pups grow up fit and healthy.

ORIGINAL: Cally01
It could be with Sapphir that she is feeling more comfortable in the new environment.  She may also be getting some rules in the house, when a dog has rules they become more confident.  Sometimes overly spoiled dogs with no boundries do not gain confidence....or in some cases can become a real pain.[]

Cally,
From the other thread you said you are into positive only training but that quote could have come straight from Milan himself. I think your behaviorist hoodwinked you by saying he was positive only. It sounds like he uses a combination of techniques which is the best approach in my way of thinking.

I also don't care about all the Wolf, wild dogs and pack theories. What matters is the way our domesticated dogs think which may or may not equate to their not so distant relatives. All I know is they are social animals that do better with others dogs and humans around them.

richard, the NILIF policy has been around a lot longer than CM.  Also the NILIF policy is basically showing the house rules, not showing your dominance. 
 
Just to add, you can use the Nothing in Life is Free policy with children, husbands, employee's and it has been used with human training for many years as well.  It's not a Milan training tool, it has been around for a long long time.  It is part of a positive approach to training.
 
sprirtdogs can explain what I'm trying to say much better.[]

Also the NILIF policy is basically showing the house rules, not showing your dominance.

 
No disrepect intended, but NILIF does, to an extend promote dominance. It proves that all good things come from the "leader" or a superior. It also promotes rules, but I actually don't think that dogs see it as following the rules, more so than realizing the "leader" has good things and "I need to do what "leader" wants in order to get it." or I could say, conditioning the animal to respond to a stimulus.

I understand NILIF and agree with it's usefulness. I didn't ever see where Milan claims to have invented any of the techniques he teaches or that they are new at all. People always like to try and discredit him by saying his methods have been around a long time which is just an ad homen arguement.

The guy is just good at getting his message across to the owners who are usually the cause of the problem. I have two rescue Pit mixes that came with some issues that we have been resolving. My perspective is probably a lot different than someone with a mild mannered dog that doesn't have any major baggage to deal with.