are all pitbulls aggressive?

Sym100000 -
 
I am sorry for your experiences.  I don't think anybody here is saying that in the light of bad experiences you should still extol the virtues of bully breeds.  However - they are YOUR experiences.  The bully breed owners and lovers on this board are the result of good experiences with these breeds, and as such are likely inclined to always believe that any viciousness is a result of poor socialisation or other owner error.   That is neither "right" or "wrong" according to absolute values - it is simply the human characteristic of basing ones beliefs on ones own experiences.  Everybody does that, and moral judgement cannot be applied to it. 
 
Obviously, the majority of encounters you have had with these breeds have been negative and that is tragic, but it does not discount the positive experiences of others.  There is nothing wrong with learning both sides of every story - any potential dog owner should do that with ANY breed.  What is objectionable here is the theory that ALL examples of ALL bully breeds are ALWAYS "just waiting" to snap.  This is just simply not the case.  If a dog, of any breed, has been well-bred for temperament as well as looks, well socialised and trained not just as a puppy but throughout its life, the experience of owning that dog is likely to be good.  A badly-bred, badly socialised, untrained dog will be a nightmare, and neglect of even one of those considerations will potentially cause problems.  It is true that some dogs of some bully breeds can be dog aggressive, even after living with other dogs for a long time in harmony.  It is NOT true that this is automatically the case, nor is it true that this is likely to happen with humans.
 
The most vicious, nasty dog I ever met was a Westie - do I hate all Westies?  No, of course not, but I won't ever choose to be in a room with that one again.  Near my house there is a pub that keeps 2 dobermans chained up on the roof, and they scare the daylights out of me.  Not the breed, but the attack stance they go into every single time I walk past.  Would I let my puppy play with a well-socialised, trained dobe at the park?  Heck yes.  Would I ever own a bully breed dog?  Honestly, it's highly unlikely - I prefer much larger dogs....but I wouldn't hesitate to play with Jaime's lovely dogs if I ever got the chance. 
 
Nobody here is telling you to be a banner-waving fan of these breeds, and obviously your experiences are going to make that impossible.  What I believe people are saying is that those experiences were unfortunate and should never have happened in ideal circumstances.  Not knowing the history of the dogs in the attacks you have talked about, it is impossible to say what went wrong - but something did go wrong.  A "right" experience  with one of these dogs would never have ended up in those ways.  Things can go wrong with any breed, and any dog-owner combination.  Those who fight against breed specific leglislation do so because they realise there is nothing inherently wrong with these breeds - and education of the proper characteristics of these dogs can ONLY serve to further the cause of breeding properly, for temperament, and thus "breeding out" any aggressive or "bad" genes.  I, for one, am more suspicious of the breeding background of these dogs you have experienced than anything else.  If they came from a BYB or other source that knew nothing about breeding responsibly, from good lines, then problems may have always been on the cards.  Responsible dog ownership STARTS with finding a reputable breeder (exceptions made for rescues, of course)...if the owner doesn't do that it is unfair to blame the dog, or the breed, for any problems that later occur.
 
[/soapbox]
 
Kate

I am starting a petition for OSL (owner specific legislation). Who's with me?

 
Great idea Mic!  Do you have the lawn signs and bumper stickers yet?  I think I have room right next to the "My Dog Votes" sticker.  []
 
My friend is a groomer and the only dog that ever face bit her was an old Golden Retriever.  I have only been bitten once - a nice puncture in the hand by a five month old Bloodhound (his owner wanted to know if the dog could still be a therapy dog...[sm=banghead002.gif])
 
I really wish, however, that we could get rid of the "it's only how you raise them" model - this is what leads ignorant owners down the path of ignoring their dogs' genetic makeup.  Can you have a Pit that likes to play with others?  Sure.  Should you bank on it because you are humane and take him to class?  Probably not.  But, at least  you should learn to manage any dog you own properly, as most of the people on this forum are trying to do.
 
Bad experiences should not be used to indict an entire breed.  That's like saying that if a black man robs a liquor store, all black men are thieves.  Ridiculous.
 
 

Sym,
 
If people are sending you abusive emails, that is a violation of the rules here.  Report the situation to Jaime.  Trust me, she will handle it.

A Golden Retriever that I rehomed went on to rip a basset hound's ear off and do permanent damage to the basset owner's arm. We never found out what caused it, but we rehomed him with a family that had no other dogs because he was not good with other dogs and he had started fighting with ours. They let their son walk him in the park alone... >-.-<

But anyway, that is my worst experience with a dog being aggressive. No pit bull has held a candle to it as of yet.

I am the person who invited Sym to stay on the forum and learn from us as well as teach us what he/she also knows.
Reading the last post I see why there would be such disagreement to what we know and live(the people on this forum who are responsible owners)
 I will also say that some newer owners of the breed haven't found the way to curb their passions regarding people who do not have the same love for the breed or have nopt found that speaking softly gets you heard more then shouting.
 
Sym,
 If you are still reading, I saw that you took a break from the forum. I'm glad you're back and shared your experiences. That will help the other members know why you fell the way you do and have every right to feel that way until you get the opportunity to feel differently.
 
If you have been sent e-mails that are abusive please forward them to me as no one should be harrased on or off this forum in that manner by members.
 
 

I recenly lost my alomst 4 year old pitt/lab mix. I too was a little concerned about the breed but I knew enough to know that it is the poeple who get a hold on them. My beloved Cole looked almost full pitt. My mom told me I was stupid and a kennel owner told me that my dog was a liability and not an assest to my family. He never met my dog but because I told him he was pitt he immediately assumed. When I first got Cole we made the decision that we would train him and make sure he respected us and loved us like we loved him. I could put my hand in his bowl while he ate or even take a bone out of his mouth and he NEVER bit me or turn on me. He loved our cats and we soon got another dog. The new dog was a mixed breed and dog aggressive. I was more scared of him then I ever was of Cole. Everyone who met Cole fell in love with him and once my mom realized it was all in how you raise them she soon loved your grandson even more.
     I understand there is concern with any bully breed or large breed attacking but it is the owners responsibility to take all precautions. Such as not leaving children unattended with ANY breed. I was approached many times by "thugs" and other stupid people about breeding him. All they wanted was to fight him but once they found out that he was fixed they moved on. (I would have never done it anyway) One of my old neighbors saw Cole and went out and bought a Bluenose Pittbull whose grandfather was a champion fighter and his bloodline were fighters. What does that tell you about the owner, he doesn't want the dog for a companion he wants it for the fighting ability and he has two young children. That dog was isolated in the back yard and was mean.
    I wish you and Jetter the best and as long as you love him and train him properly he will be a great dog. Socialization is the key for all dogs not just pitts. Socialize him with other dogs and people. My Cole loved everything that moved. Good luck

First of all I'd like to say to Sym, I'm sorry for your experiences with those particular dogs.  I've had some bad experiences with dogs before and it colored the way that I look at certain breeds as well.
I've been around dogs since I was an infant, my first childhood memories are those of being in the company of 2 GSDs and a Cock-a-poo (the dog that later gave me my first dogbite and sent me to the hospital for repairs to my face.)  It would have been easy for me to become afraid of dogs or to blame the dogs for acting like dogs.  Lucky for me I did not.
 
I can, however, blame careless owners for possessing dogs with no real idea of how to train them or socialize them properly.  Some dogs become aggressive, no matter how well they are trained.  The majority of dogs do not.  The breed does not matter, however the breeding does. 
Another major impact upon a dog's adult behavior is that dogs puppy experiences.  Traits that are thought of as "cute" or "funny" as a puppy can become "dangerous" or "destructive" behaviors if they are allowed to continue.  (playing rough or chewing or possessiveness are examples of these.) 
In my area, I am surprised at how many pit bulls I encounter, I am even more surprised at how early the owners got them from the "breeders."  The average age that they get them is 6 weeks.  I've seen some that got their dogs as early as 3 1/2 weeks.  This also impacts the dogs' adult behavior.   The puppy never has a chance to learn from it's mother.  And then the humans come in and try to make the dog "mean" or "aloof" or whatever else they try to make the dog.  They scold it or spank the pup as if it were a child.  A child might understand but a dog doesn't understand.  If the owners scold or spank during a "fear" period, the dog is scarred for life, or at least impacted for life. 
 
I'm not discounting your experiences in the least.  I do feel, however, that perhaps your experiences were colored by suspect breeding practices at the least. 
 
Thank you for returning to the forum and sharing a bit of your perspective with us.

First of all, Sym100000, I'm very sorry about your bad experiences.
 
Pitbull attacks and bites definitely do happen.  But I think it's a long leap of blind faith to blame these things on the overall temperment of the breed. All factors have to be taken into consideration, such as two well known agreed-upon facts about the breed:
 
1. Pitbulls were bred to have a high pain tolerance.
2. Pitbulls were bred to have strength in attacking/biting.
 
If you were to take these two characteristics and impose them onto any other breed of dog, keeping the temperment/personality of the other breed, I think you would see just as many or probably more attacks/bites. (A chihuahua with a pitbulls strength would be pretty fear inspiring...) Therefore, just because you hear of pitbulls who attack or bite people and cause damage, does not prove that their temperment is at fault. The problem is that in any breed you have dogs with poor temperments, and you also have poor owners. The stakes are just higher with pitbulls because they have the ability to cause more damage and are less likely to stop fighting if they get hurt. But this proves nothing in regards to their overall personalities.
 
Another problem that I think has contributed to the bad reputation is that when a stupid owner who knows little about raising dogs has a dog who bites someone, what do you think they're going to say? "Yeah, I saw it coming, but I didn't do anything?" No, they'll say "it just happened out of nowhere" to save their rear ends, or because they are just so inept when it comes to understanding dog communication that they actually didn't see it coming. But if you don't know what you're doing with dogs, why would you own a pitbull? If you didn't know how to juggle, would you start by juggling knives? If you cut yourself is it the knive's fault? You didn't see it coming, so the knive has to be destroyed because it's capable of hurting someone out of the blue for no apparent reason (even though you were the one tossing them up in the air)? Anyway, I think my point is made.

Finished female hogdog for sale 1000. Call: 352-328-8354 or Email. This is quoted out of the Gainesville 4 sale classifieds. Just slightly off topic. This shows just how ignorant people are about bullies.
[linkhttp://gainesville4sale.com/animals/dogs-for-sale.php]http://gainesville4sale.com/animals/dogs-for-sale.php[/link]

Disgusted!

I didn't read through all of these but LOVED this one......
 
DOG SHOW!!! Bring your APBTs out and support the All American Dog Registry. We'll have trophies and ribbons. There will be vendors selling dog collars, leashes, etc. Help us promote a positive image. You can reg. your dogs at the show with the reg. for only $5!!! Bring your 3 and 4 gen. pedigree and your dogs and have a great time!! Don't know the ped, don't worry, enter in our fun classes! Call: or [linkhttp://gainesville4sale.com/post/contact-seller.php?id=45425]E-mail[/link]

Sym I sorry that you have had bad experiences with this breed, and with such frequent occurrence. Most people (including me) express only one side of the story when trying to convince people of their beliefs. Yes we pit bull/ staffy owners and lovers have expressed only how great the breed is without admitting that yes there are quite a few dogs who bite snarl, growl and are aggressive. Just as you have stated the opposite without admitting that not all pittys are bad dogs. Its just human nature.
 
A lot of people misunderstand pit bulls because of the bad rep the media has given them. In the news, good news does not sell and is not as interesting as bad news which is why you never hear of therapy, obedience pit bulls, or of the good deeds many pit bulls do. You only hear about pit bull attacks, because frankly people find this more interesting. That is why an inexperienced person will assume all pit bulls are bad.
 
I have been around a lot of pit bulls in my short life. My father owned a Pit Bull, very sweet girl, All her pups went to caring responsible owners and they all turned out great. My grandmother owned a Pit Bull and in her old fashioned way of thinking had her tied up all the time. But even though she lived this way she was also a sweet girl, though once off the chain she would run like a mad dog.
 
I currently know a guy that has a female Pit Bull and a male puppy. I feel sorry for them. Not because they will be fighters but because he just wants these dogs for intimidation. He also owns a Great Pyrenese? And he is a sweet boy but because of his size the guy uses him for intimidation purposes. He used to own a Cane Corso (for the same reason) and that dog is one of the few in Puerto Rico, and instead of teaching and training him to be a good breed ambassador he trained him to be very dog aggressive and that pup killed over 6 dogs to his stupid macho delight.

He used to own a Cane Corso (for the same reason) and that dog is one of the few in Puerto Rico, and instead of teaching and training him to be a good breed ambassador he trained him to be very dog aggressive and that pup killed over 6 dogs to his stupid macho delight.

And this is bad for the dog, any breed of dog under these macho, status symbol fools, can produce a bad, unreliable dog, kind of like a loaded gun. The worst part is the extensive damage the bully breeds can do.
Yes, in the wrong hands, these dogs are unpredictable.
What we as bullie lovers are trying to do is get the law on our side just for once to put a stop to the abuse these and other's suffer in the wrong hands. It shreds our hearts, because we know what they are  truely, really like. Loving, loyal and faithful to their human pack. And much more. You could not ask for a more obedient dog.
I am also sorry you have had bad experiences with this wonderful breed. As a young child I was bit by a GSD. It took me years to recover from that and realize not all GSD are evil. I educated myself about this breed and met a few kind GS's. And I hope you do to, to get over the fear of these wonderful creatures.
 
Jaime, It takes all kinds of ignorance doesn't it?  I just could NOT believe it when I read it! Hogdog, what an idiot!
 

No, not all Pitts are aggressive. Lots of socialization between now & 9 mo. with other animals and children especially. Altering before
sexual maturation is also extremely advisable!!!! 

I'm very sorry you had bad experiences with these dogs. 

Let's think about this logically for a moment.  Pit bulls and pit bull mixes are likely the most numorous type of dog in the country.  If EVERY pit "turned" on people, we would have had a rash of MILLIONS of attacks, in a very short period of time--MILLIONS.

In my area, according to Animal Control, labs are the number one biters.  Does this mean that all labs are vicious?  Shall we ban the?

Studies have shown, one of which was conducted by an insurance company (who has money at stake in this), that no one breed of dog is more likely to bite than another.  Studies have also shown that a dogs owner is much more of a factor in it's likelyhood to bite than it's breed.

I have been biten in the face too--by a German Shepard.  I had 21 stitches, and still have scars on my face.  In fact, most of my bad dog experiences have involved shepards (being chased several times, having my dog nearly eaten by one).  However, I would never suggest that all German Shepards be banned.

The problem is with the people not the dogs. 

As far as peoples' reactions to your posts--suck it up.  When you post on a public board you open yourself up to public opinion.

I wanted to chime in here, I am not an owner of a pitbull as I feel that it's too much dog for me. I know not all pitbulls are "mean" and are "going to snap". I actually think that anything with teeth could "snap" and bite someone, regardless of breed.
But, where I live you should see the way pitbulls are raised, it's disgusting in my subdivision there is about 6-9 pitbulls, one of them is the cutest most playful dog ever, he comes to my house for playdates with my 2 and they get along wonderful. They are not left unsupervised though as who knows what might make one angry. But the rest of the pitbulls are not so nice, and I know it's the owner, they get walked (or the owner gets walked, they pull the owner) wearing these big thick chains, they are left in the garages all day, you can hear them barking and jumping at the door. These dogs are huge, their chests are so thick and stocky. I will admit *those* pitbulls scare me!  Just as if it was a gsd,lab or poodle being raised that way it would scare me! They are not socialized at all and bark and growl when being walked. So while I don't agree with the BSLs by anymeans maybe that is the only way they think they can keep "bad owners" from having these dogs.
 
 It's  a tough situation as from what I have seen from my friends pitbull and those shown on here they are fantastic dogs, but like any dog if the wrong person gets ahold of them, it's tragic for the dog and it's potential victim.
 
So, what can be done to ensure the safety of the dog (of any breed) when it comes to owners who lack the skills and care when it comes to raising a dog?
 
Kristie