Ceasar Milan has changed recently! yea!

dominance doesn't motivate him

 
I bet reward does! 

Is it that passive animals need positive reinforcement, and dominant alpha dogs need dominant reinforcement?

 
No, all animals can learn by positive reinforcement.  The key is in the reward.  The reward needs to be something the animal is willing to work for.  Treats, toys, your company, a ride in the car, chasing squirrels....whatever.   The dominance theory is simply a method that relies on the avoidance of aversives.  I'd rather have the bulk of my training involve having my dog work for something he wants, than to avoid pain or punishment.  +R training works very well when applied properly, and your dog will not become food dependent if that is the case.

You raise a good point, Anne. It also works for humans. Women know this, naturally. You tell a guy that you will spend the evening with him and he will move mountains to get to that scenario. It's all in the reward. Finding what the reward trigger for our dogs  is should be one of our key endeavours.

You tell a guy that you will spend the evening with him and he will move mountains to get to that scenario.

 
Yeah, but will he respect me in the morning? []
 
 
 

Most guys can't think that far ahead, unless motivated to do so. That is, we can be extremely goal-oriented. It also depends on self-respect. IMO, I can respect anyone who respects me.
 

C/T, Ron. []

[font="tahoma"]We rescue abused and neglected dogs. The dogs are now a pa[/font]ck--we have six that we could not, and would not place.  Caesar Milan's theories have fascinated my daughter, however, the jury is still out.  Our dogs are pets--which means, to me, they adjust to our way of living and home.  Two of our pets sleep in my bed (an absolute CM no-no), two sleep in my daughter's bed and the other two sleep on the floor beside the bed.    Fresh dry dog food is placed out each morning and they eat whenever they wish.  We have a large, fenced backyard and porch that allows them to come in and out at will.  Fresh water is always available.  They are the sweetest, most gentle dogs -- opinion of our friends and relatives -- yet two are considered very aggressive breeds (pit bull and rottweiller/german shepherd mix).  If I followed Caesar's guidelines, life for everyone in our home would change, I don't believe for the better.  Why would we want to do that?  I'm a believer of whatever works is fine.  Our dogs are lovable, will allow anyone in the house to take or touch their food while they are eating, and  none of them will growl or snap if you take a bone or treat from them.  Fighting among them is almost non-existent.  The two newest, Annabelle  and Champ  are young and have boundless energy--they spend a lot of time running around the back yard.  Max, our oldest, is a golden retriever (who we rescued five years ago from our next door neighbor)  was left outside tied to a tree during thunder and lightening.  He also had fly larvae living in his ears.  We are thrilled that he is perfectly healthy (he's almost 12 years old) but needs a little help during storms.  He sleeps in a shower stall on a soft comforter during the worst of the storms.  Caesar's advice worked well for Max--we don't cuddle him or give him extra attention when there is a storm--it makes him worse.  Many dogs have come and gone through our home over the years, but only to tried and true, well investigated families, especially families who don't have young children.  Rescue dogs don't do well with young children. They need adults who are kind and caring.  I believe that Caesar is coming from the point of view that dogs are wild--they are not, they are domesticated and rely upon the humans that love them to lead them and care for them.  The dominance issue is overplayed.  

I'm happy to hear he has changed his ways. As trainers we were all mortified when we saw him yank the possesive Visla off the couch using a choke chain. It only confirmed the dog's fear of losing his place on the couch. I am willing to give the show another look after reading some posts on the matter.
 

Ceasar is right on!
Having watched most episodes, the three basics are:
1.  Calm Assertive Pack Leader
2.  Power Walk.
3.  Consistency.
 
It is about natural animal behavior, not human quirkyness.  Then the animal can be healthy.
 
Don't know about the changes referred to.  Perhaps the complexities of business and celebrity in America?
 
I spend as much time in the wilderness as possible as a lone Alpha, armed only with a camera- over 56 years 'out there', and the peace and harmony of the wilds is the greatest.
Downtown Newark or L.A.-now that's scary

Rescue dogs don't do well with young children.

 
Tell that to my hound who was rescued as an intact male at the age of 2 1/2.  He is now a registered therapy dog and works very well with humans of all ages, including pre-schoolers.  [sm=proud.gif]
 
 

I love that you guys are so sensible about your approach to dog behaviour. It's why I joined this forum. My mother and I have felt for years now that this focus on dominance and making sure you never ever let your dog do what it wants to without your specific approval takes the joy out of owning a dog. I'm not particularly experienced with dogs. I've only ever had the one and she's been pretty darned easy. But having said that, she's an angel with me and my mother and anyone else who means what they say to her, but cheerfully ignores everyone who isn't particularly confident that she'll do what they tell her to.

wrt Cesar Millan, I've only just seen some of his shows and agree that he seems a little overly intense. Sometimes dogs seem to be quite scared of what he might do next. However, so far I think a lot of the troubles people have with dogs are related to how the people view themselves and their dog's behaviour. I think oftentimes reasserting yourself as the boss does a lot to alleviate the problems dogs might have. A lot of people don't get dogs on the instinctive level that other people get dogs. Myself, I have a strong sense of what is a dog behaving rudely or being deliberately naughty and when I see it I react by sternly calling the dog to my side and getting them to sit. I think the thing people do wrong when their dog does something bizarre or naughty is to stand by and watch helplessly while they do it. I find that if I refuse to tolerate nonsense and get my dog to sit by me instead, it usually gives me a good result. Penny breaks the rules I have set quite a lot, but really only when I tell her she can. If I say, okay, just this once you can hop up on the bed and cuddle with me, I don't feel that Penny immediately assumes I'm a weak leader because I'm letting her break the rule. Rather, I feel that she recognises I'm letting her break the rule and enjoys it while it lasts.

I might be young and inexperienced, but I've developed a pretty strong idea about how I want to deal with dogs. I don't think it's necessary to scruff puppies or adults and I've never done it. I also don't think it's necessary to physically correct a dog. Mothers do indeed scruff their puppies, but I think only when the pup is being especially naughty and not paying attention. I think the mother first tries the usual method of staring the pup down or grumbling at it. I've seen Penny completely dominate another dog with nothing more than an intent stare. In fact, with that stare she managed to convey to the other dog that it must sit in the garden under the bush until she'd finished greeting the humans, and only then could it come out and have its turn. I find that the most intense thing I need to do is take her face in my hands and stare in her eyes. That's a pretty threatening thing to do to a dog and gets the message across that she's doing the wrong thing and should pay more attention to me pretty effectively. If only I could master that stare of hers that sends the other dogs obediently rushing under the bush and waiting like angels until she lets them come out.

ORIGINAL: corvus

My mother and I have felt for years now that this focus on dominance and making sure you never ever let your dog do what it wants to without your specific approval takes the joy out of owning a dog. I'm not particularly experienced with dogs. I've only ever had the one and she's been pretty darned easy.

The problem comes when newbie trainers run into a difficult dog (and, the addition of even one different dog can change a pack dynamic).  But, in my experience, it still isn't necessary to brutalize a dog to get him to comply.  And, it isn't always possible to have certain dogs living under the same roof.  People who have large packs (I have five) and want to do it successfully, usually are pretty careful who they invite into the pack, just as would happen in the wild.  And, frankly, a lot of folks are just plain lucky.

Ya know what, I watch his show pretty often.  And, there are some things that he says that I actually write down.  And, some things I just wouldn't do and don't think are necessary. But, I've yet to see him "brutalize" anyone or anydog. 
 
I think that's blowing things way out of proportion and giving the impression he's doing something he's not.

I know I'm odd man out here, but I totally agree with Cesar.  I have seen all the episodes multiple times and read his book and have yet to see where all this "violent, cruel" behavior is???
 
IMO some of these owners are much more cruel than he could ever be.  If you saw the show with those out of control min pins you'd agree with me.  Those owners had NO business owning one dog, yet alone two.  They allowed those dogs to become out of control to the point of running their lives.  The wife is scared of dogs, so she really shouldn't have been around projecting that energy onto them.  I could tell that those owners had NO intention of changing anything about themselves and therefore nothing would change with the dogs.  Well, they since put one of the min pins to sleep.  Didn't surprise me in the least since they refused to change.  They put her to sleep and Cesar found out after the fact.  I bet he would have taken that min pin to his center and rehabbed her and then found her a new home.  Shame on those owners!!
 
I don't understand people that insist on treating dogs like humans.  They are not humans!!!!! 
 
Some dogs do very well with +R only.  But, that's dog training.  Cesar goes beyond that.  He doesn't do traditional "dog training" with commands.  Any dog can be taught commands because it's operant conditioning and the use of a treat will motivate.  Remember Pavlov and Skinner??
 
Kato knows his commands as he's been to classes and we as his owners know how to train a dog with +R and conditioning.  He is by nature a very calm submissive dog.  We don't yell at him or physically "dominate" him in any way.  I do at times use a scruff correction when needed.  He doesn't go through doors ahead of us, he waits for his food in a calm submissive manner.  He does this easily and he's rewarded with food.  I've changed my behavior in that I don't reward or give any attention when he's in a state of mind I don't want to foster. That's the "discipline" he receives.  He knows the state of mind that will get him is food and affection and he readily puts himself "there".  
 
Even if I had a tiny breed, he wouldn't be allowed on furniture, beds or running all over the house jumping on people!  That's annoying to most and unacceptable behavior for me.  I'd correct that from day one.
 
Most of Cesar's clients have allowed this horrendous behavior for years and then want an easy fix.  They have to work daily at gaining control so they can enjoy their dogs more.
 
As for lawsuits, unfortuneatly we live in a litigation happy society.  People sue over nothing and win huge settlements.  Sad.  Cesar now has a bit of money, fame and he's become an easy target.  I"m sure to have your dog at his center you have to sign your life away in release forms.  However, dogs are dogs and accidents will happen.  Those owners know he uses treadmills and I'm sure were aware of that when they dropped the pooch off.  I don't know the specifics of that case, but ANY dog trainer out there is a target for a lawsuit.  I'd definitely get high end insurance on myself if I were to hang a shingle out.  Anything you tell a client can come back to haunt you down the road and they could sue you for it. 
 
I believe in using many differnt methods of training geared towards individual dogs.  It's the OWNERS that need to keep calm and assertive.  Assertive doesn't mean aggressive or cruel.  Dominant doesn't mean aggressive or cruel.   We have expectations of how we want Kato to behave.  I think expecting less of him or lowering the bar is doing him a disservice.  He's a wonderful family dog and very much loved! 

I usually stay out of the Cesar threads because I enjoy his show very much and have read his book. I generally agree with his theory of exercise, discipline and affection and rules, limitations boundaries. I have often wondered myself where so many people on this thread have come up with him being too intense, but have never disregarded those opinions. It's just made me watch more closely what he does and try to see what some of you all see. Sometimes I can see why some on here don't like his methods, but most of the time I just think some people on here have misunderstood him and/or misinterpreted his ways.
 
However, about two days ago, I was watching ane episode and finally had my light bulb moment about why some of you say the things you do about him. It was a a couple who had a small Bichon Frise that was aggressive towards the woman, even to the point where the woman no longer slept in her own bed. The dog would bite her and growl and was just mean towards this woman. So Cesar comes in to help and they go into the bedroom. When Cesar tried to make the dog get off, the dog started getting mean and aggressive and Cesar grabbed hold of the dog by the throat and held him to the bed. It was so fast and looked like it would hurt. He then held the dog up by the scruff of it's neck and then again held it to the bed. I cringed just watching it. When the dog became "submissive", he held it under his arm and then handed it to the woman. The woman was amazed that the dog wasn't biting her and I'm thinking, "Of course the dog isn't biting you! Your the dog's refuge against Cesar! The poor thing would rather be in your arms than his! He didn't solve the problem!
 
My mom was watching this with me and she was saying, "I think he needed to get like that with the dog Sylvia. That dog was just running that house. Look, the dog is fine now." Right after she said that, Cesar and the woman tried to remove the dog again and it growled again. The dogs head was lower though and it just looked calm, but in a scary way. That's the best way I can describe it. I wasn't happy with what I saw at all. I told my mom, "No Mom, I don't like what he did here. He didn't solve the root of the problem. He just made the dog scared. I don't like how he went about this."
 
I just kept thinking, millions of people have seen this show and this episode. They are going to think that if they do that to there dog, that the problem will be solved and they will only make it worse. There were so many other, positive ways I think that problem could have been addressed. So having said ALL of that, I will continue to watch his show and I do still agree with the theories I listed above, but I am more wary now and I see a little bit more clearly what some of you have been saying.