Ceasar Milan has changed recently! yea!

But, I won't let any dog drag me through a doorway or pull me down the street.

 
Different situations require different formations, in our case. Shadow's ancestors were bred to pull hard and run fast. On a regular walk, he is to the side or in front but I can control our direction with commands and sometimes a leash tug. In a busy situation, I will shorten the leash by wrapping it around my hand, which brings him in close to me. This allows me to step in front as alpha, if necessary. It also allows me greater control of him and because of our proximity, only a small dog with a 10 foot attitude would dare to come closer. As was mentioned, a small dog may often be in control, though incapable of actually scruffing a large dog. But that doesn't stop them from trying. Shadow's old playmate, Duke, was a JRT who would always try and dominate. Shadow endured his attempts at mounting and nippiing because it was so fun to play with him, not because Duke exuded any actual alpha ability, though he had plenty of attitude.
 
Eventually, Duke was re-homed. He got out of his yard and was killed by a coyote. So, I think part of the alpha status of a dog or person is due to a dog or other dogs, accepting that status, for the most part.

mudpuppy, I said it once on the old forum, and I'll say it again here - are you sure you aren't a trainer?????  If you aren't, you da&^ well should be!!!  Another great post showing a clear understanding of pack dynamics. 

I can give my dogs exercise, disipline, affection, rules, boundries, limitations and  be their  calm, assertive pack leaker without using dominance.  it's called being a benevolent leader.

ORIGINAL: ron2

but the 1hr long walk a day... or whatever he recommends, isn't going to be enough for the hyperactive pitty

In one episode where he helped a family deal with their pittie, he gave them a doggy saddlebag to load down with stuff like bottled water. Increasing the load during the walk helps to burn off the energy and gives the dog a job.

That's true, he usually explains that the 45-60 minute walk is the least you should do. I remember another episode where he brought the owners hyperactive dog to a sheep herding ranch to burn off energy and satisfy his herding instinct. 

I train hot young horses, not dogs (except my own dogs). It gives you a different perspective to deal with an animal that you can't physically force to do anything, and that flips out in terror if you attempt to "dominate" it, and often literally cannot think if not exercised enough.

An interesting thread.  I've watched The Dog Whisperer and have walked away with some good ideas and at other times I walked away scratching my head wondering what the heck he thinks he's doing. 

After you watch a few episodes, you see they are ALL the same--no matter what the problem, it's because YOU aren't exerting yourself strongly enough as the leader of the pack, and you need to do that.  You really only need to watch one episode and it's like you've seen them all, because he applies the same philosophy to every problem.  I wish life were that simple. 

My adopted 6 year old was dominated so fiercely by his previous owners, who needed to exert their dominance and leadership, that he is absolutely repressed and has no joy.  They trained him to not approach a door until they told him to, and by gosh, that poor dog wouldn't go near a door if an elephant was chasing him through the house.  The previous owners reported to me that he was not housetrained, he just couldn't be housetrained, he's stubborn, etc.  Well..... how can you housetrain a dog that you have taught to absolutely positively never go near a door????  I have ben working on overcoming this problem, and just this week, he is barking at the door to go to the yard.  He IS housetrained.  I am still working on getting him to look at us, using a treat and "Watch Me," he was trompled so far into submission that he would never look at our faces. 

My dogs know who's who in this household and I've never rolled, scruffed, or screamed at either.  They see me as their leader because I lead them through their day and teach them manners and obedience and provide for their needs. 

That's sad about the past of your dog and I'm glad someone like you takes care of him now, but when Cesar talks about "being the pack leader", I don't think he means taking it to that extreme.  As far as every episode being the same, that's true to some extent, but to me every case he takes on is unique becase the dogs and people have different issues and sometimes he comes up with some interesting solutions.  

And let me offer something in my defense. Nearly every sibe site I went to mentioned a few tricks peculiar to the breed. Scruffing and eye contact. Sibes, like wolves, communicate with the eyes. He who blinks first, loses. So, at first, I would sometimes have to reinforce, "no" with a scruff and eye-lock. And this was all before I came to the all-knowing people of i-dog. At the same time,  I found other training techniques based on treats and play and how to think like a dog.
 
I do have a question. A point has been raised here that you don't have to be alpha. If you are not alpha, then why is your dog listening to you? And, since a number of people are convince, at least nutrition-wise, that a dog is a wolf, and a wolf-pack does have an alpha, and that is an indisputable fact, how does that reconcile with training a dog without being alpha? And, in watching dog and wolf behavior, I haven't seen an alpha train a member of the pack with a chewy treat.
 
Just questions I had that leave me a bit confused.
 

Most the Mal sites (well, often they are Mal and Sibe sites) discourage any sort of physical corrections because the breed is SO stubborn when it wants to be and responds to a benevolent leader better. With Maddi, I can fully stand behind this because I did try the scruffing and things (thanks New Skete Monks [8|]) and she always thought I was playing. Other things just made her more nippy (which could have easily turned into aggression). I figured out real quick that I had to find a new way.
 
A dog would listen to a non-alpha member to get what they want at that particular time, (you've got a treat, I don't want to fight for it, so I'll sit and you'll give it to me). A dog might not listen to an alpha in the same turn, because not coming when called is not the same as not stealing food from in front of the alpha's face.
 
With Maddi, I show my leadership in a completely different way than I used to. I get up early, and leave her in her kennel for a while after (about 45 mins usually).  Therefor, I control some of her space (and time). I am the only one that can let her out. I make her do things for everything she wants. I don't give into pushy behavior, unless it's what I want as well. If she grabs something she shouldn't have, I tell her to drop it. If she doesn't I walk up to her (she usually drops it then), take it, and walk away. No words. Nothing. It works great, and she looks a bit sheepish like she knows I was disapointed in her.
 
When she misbehaves (like chasing a cat, grabbing somthing she shouldn't more than once), I restrict her space (tether her to my chair, put her in a time-out in her kennel). If I catch her thinking of doing something she shouldn't, like staring into the kitty litter box longingly, I tell her "no" then something like "come" or "down" to break her attention on it.
 
I initiate all games. I end all games. I routinely play tug-of-war, but I don't care who ends up with toy (usually she does). Throughout the game, I regularly say "out" which means "let go and listen for a sec," to which she usually complies. She's not allowed to grab the toy until I say "take it."
 
Finally, I do what I consider trust building excercises. I routinely just sit down and quietly rub her neck, chest, and stomach. I (gently) fiddle with her face. I pet her entire head including her muzzle. I'll sit down next to her, make her well aware that I am there and give her a gentle hug while petting her cheeks. I give her a back massage on a regular basis. Finally, I make a really effort to catch her doing something right. If she's sitting quietly on the couch, I will go over and make of her for a moment, give her a treat, or initiate a short game of play. If she ignores the cat walking by, I try to throw a party. But, the most important change I made was forgetting about constantly "asserting" (more like obsessing about my status) my alpha status on her.
 
I don't know if I just rambled on without any sense... lol, sorry if I did.
 
Becky
 
 
 
 

Actually, that was an excellent response. Another thread had asked how many treats you give your dog. I will give Shadow treats, one or two, but even then, it is a reward for obedience and my primary goal in that is to reinforce the notion to him that obedience brings great reward. Let's say that I need to re-leash him. And say I use the recall, which is "here." He comes back over yet still excited. I will then have to grab by the collar to attach the leash, either of which is a physical control.
 
At least you understood my question in the intent asked, as I wasn't trying downgrade total +R. Our dogs are not exactly wolves, regardless of what Robert K. Wayne says. And we have other tools, such as commands and a perspective of dog psych, to gain obedience. I think better knowledge of dog psych also changes our expectations.
 
I also happen to notice, especially among trainers that use total +R, a more general acceptance of euthanasia for dogs not responding to that.

I also happen to notice, especially among trainers that use total +R, a more general acceptance of euthanasia for dogs not responding to that.

 
That is something that drives me crazy.  I mainly see this attitude from the most extreme +R trainers.  The group that believe the answer to ALL negative behavior is ignoring it. 
 
It is hard to ignore a dog with his teeth rapped around your leg...Can't ignore this behavior so we better put him down!

I have to say that who goes through the door first is totally a non-issue in my house, too.  Max is usually much more excited and eager about the daily walk than I am, so of course he's standing with his nose to the door so he can scoot out as soon as it opens. That's OK with me. When we get back, I slip his leash off on the front porch. So you can bet your boots he goes in first then, too. [] He listens when I say *no* and  he hangs back and waits if I tell him to.  If he has something in his mouth that he probably shouldn't have, all I have to do is say "Max, you shouldn't have that" and he looks at me, drops it and rolls over for a belly rub. I think he knows who's *alpha* regardless of who goes through the door first.

Joyce & Max

If you are not alpha, then why is your dog listening to you? And, since a number of people are convince, at least nutrition-wise, that a dog is a wolf, and a wolf-pack does have an alpha, and that is an indisputable fact, how does that reconcile with training a dog without being alpha?

 
I think pack structure and training are completely separate issues. People confuse the two so often. When has an alpha dog/wolf EVER asked another dog to sit? never. All dominance implies is that the subordinate dogs let the alpha have first choice of resources-- food, comfortable sitting spots, toys.
 
Training is something else. There is a huge body of scientific literature out there on behavioral modification. Bottom line, your dog sits when you say sit because you make it worth his while to do so-- he sometimes gets a treat or praise or a toy, or he doesn't get his neck yanked on or he doesn't get yelled at. Nothing to do with dominance at all.  Why do you listen to your boss at work? because you want that paycheck.

To me it's a matter of teaching good manners.  I'm not really obsessive about going through the doors first within the house, but I think having my dog wait at the door when I let him out back to run in the yard or take him out the front for a walk has resulted in much better behaved dog.  I don't want him bolting out afterall, especially out the front door into the street and my dog is a runner...   

Exactly. And some dogs, at certain points in time, not every time, may require some physical control, in addition to the +R and other measures, such as desensitization, re-direction. My biggest improvement, human-wise, was in teaching myself to not accidently reward the unwanted behavior, as you pointed out in the prison dog thread. As for scruffing and alpha roll, I have used the scruff and Shadow would roll himself. When I let go, he's back to his exuberant self. As if momma dog had stopped him, held him, then let go and off he goes. Once, when Shadow was trying to play too hard with the in-law's Lhasa Apso and I saw the beginning of what could be a fight, (Mitzy was yelping), I used the scruff, a long, low, "no" and an eye-lock. When I released, he got up and followed me and even though Mitzy was barking at him, he didn't look at her. What I did caused no harm to him and it broke his train of thought. After that, I relied on obedience commands through reward. But I've only used the scruff as a physical control in dire circumstances and at the right moment. It is not for everyone or every dog.
 
But I also don't believe in putting a dog down just because it hasn't responded treats, etc. That dog may live a full wonderful life, with certain limitations, if the owner is up to it. For example, an owner may have to give up the idea of going to dog parks, etc. And, as you pointed out in that other thread, the solution may require nothing even as mildly physical as a scruff, but simply patience and re-conditioning.
 
I know just enough to know how much I don't know. But then, I am blessed with a good tempered dog, though a bit rambunctious but loyal. Then again, my wife and I have different expectations of him than others might. For example, if she's wearing gardening clothes, then she doesn't mind if he rears up for a hug and she can play with him fairly rough, which he likes. And I'm a big ol boy that can play with him, too. I do have him trained for "off" and "no." And if guests being over is too exciting for him, I will secure him to defuse his excitement and give him some peace.