Pairing up Dogs

Has there been any injuries from the brawls?  If they're working things out with a lot of noise, it might end up okay.  If they're actually getting into a fight (latching on and trying to inflict damage) then I'd be more worried.  We rescued a female lab as a playmate for our female lab mix, and they tolerate each other most of the time but have also had some serious fights.  We have to manage them very carefully and keep them separated much of the time.  This isn't something I'd recommend, especially with children in the house.  Before you make any decisions, you could try to find a behaviorist to observe both dogs and give you an opinion and some suggestions on how to manage things.  I know how frustrating this can be, so I wish you luck.

To be honest, I'd return the dog.  You are getting a dog so that your first dog will have a friend, right?  An adult dog does not want an adolescent pushy puppy as a friend (the up may be very nice to humans, but your dog isn't viewing him that way - he is at the age where most adult dogs start to reject adolescent dogs - they run out of "puppy license" and are considered obnoxious).  My advice would be to take an adult submissive type, or get a puppy and start from scratch (almost all adults will tolerate and like a young puppy - by the time it gets to the obnoxious stage, it's already considered part of the pack). 
The "brawls" that are just meant to work things out usually don't last long - two or three episodes and someone will come out on top - continued brawling indicates that the dogs are of similar status.  That isn't great, because they may eventually do more than fight ritualistically, or they will just continue to do that, and they will probably never be friends (dogs pick their friends just like people). 
Your dog may be perfectly friendly to neighbor dogs because they don't end up in her "den".  But, you described the neighbor dog as "timid" - that is what your dog probably likes.  A dog that is going to defer to her, not a dog that is going to guard her stuff and not let her near it.  BTW, once this dog gets really familiar in the household, the guardiness may escalate, and, considering the breed mix, you can probably bet on it.  While you can train him not to guard against humans, you are unlikely to be able to control it between dogs.

I agree with spiritdogs,
I`m always of the opinion to wait until the first dog has really grown up, is "mature" in his mind and has a steady and reliable education before getting another dog, especially at the age of 8months. At that age most dogs try to see "what`s in it" for them and it`s hard enough to give one dog the attention and education he needs.
 
And when the first dog has grown up it can be a lot easier (CAN not has to be) to train the second one. Two dogs at nearly the same age with a lot of self-confidence will end up in fight for the higher status.
I would wait until your first dog`s older and her obedience is established and then put a puppy to her or a submissive dog.
 
 

I'd return the dog.  We fostered a male Chessie intending to adopt him.  The fights only got worse as time went on.  In our case it was our female who was initiating the problems, so I knew we would need either a puppy or a very submissive male.  We waited about 5 more months for the right dog (Indy) to come along.  She still has resource guarding issues, but he backs down or completely ignores her.  You just need to find the right match.
 
Also, Jasmine was just over a year when we adopted Indy who was 5 months.  I honestly think if we had waited any longer, Jasmine wouldn't have accepted any dog into our home.  As she has matured, she seems to have become less tolerant of other dogs (a Chessie trait).

I agree-- it's rarely a good idea to have two dogs of very similar ages in the same household. Either they compete violently with each other, or they bond so firmly that humans become irrelevant to them. My own observation is that in the most peaceful multi-dog households the dogs are separated in age by around five years. It takes five years for a dog to fully mature and be fully trained. It's much easier to add a puppy if you don't have to spend enormous chunks of time supervising and training another puppy (and a year-old lab is still a puppy). 

Very interesting posts, thank you very much.  I would have not guessed for so similar responses, especially for not keeping the dog.  Thats the exact reason why I posted!! (to hear what people thought) 
 
You know we originally thought about getting a puppy, that was our game plan, but then I figured we could get a rescue dog from a shelter and sorta help out a little.  Maybe I need to revisit that again.
 
To update:
I came home yesterday from work (they were left alone to their own premise all day yesterday in the dog run) and they seemed to have all their toes and ears.  The rest of the early evening, in observation they appeared to be getting along much better.  Later that evening when we let them inside, we made sure our female got first dibs on laying on her bed (vs letting the new dog lay there) and then allowed the new pup to lay next to her.  They seemed to be much more engaged with each other.
 
One thing I did notice when I had them in the backyard playing.  Before all they would do together was this:  Our Female would grab a toy...and then try to entice the other dog to "chase" her around the yard...which the other male pup would do maybe once or twice...but would quickly lose interest and ignore her.  I don't know if I would count that as "playing" unless they share the role of chase and chaser.
 
Well anyways, yesterday when I let them out...the seemed to engage each other more...more wrestling and mouthing, but I "think" in a good way.  You would see teeth and stuff, but no mean growls.  So took that as a good sign?
 
Couple of comments:  Our  Female when she plays...has two versions of play...but shes a pretty powerful dog and does like to play "hard" meaning she likes to wrestle and use her weight to pin and push etc etc...vs being more timid and on your back sorta deal.  She will do that as well, but not very often.  I don't know if that is a good thing or not.  So that was the type of play they were doing, and because she is larger than the male pup, she was definitely dominate in this role.  For the most part he seemed to be fine with it...and tried to keep up with her...wrestle back...but usually ended up giving in.
 
Second comment:  We have the dog on a trial basis, we told the people we needed to see how he worked out around our house and dog etc etc.  Well right before we had taken him, he apparently had gotten into a porcupine...and last night we found a quill that had worked itself free in his upper roof of his mouth.  It was in there good...probaby about an inch.  So we got it out this morning and he seemed pretty releaved...I dont' think that had any "real" influence on his behavior...but it probably did effect his disposition to some extent if his mouth was all tender.
 
I'll be interested to see if his possiveness gets worse or better over the next few days?  Is that too short of time span to determine?  We have made more of an effort to let him know that what our Female dog wants, she gets first...to let him know the order.  Does that help or make it worse?  Our female seems to be liking it, and is more of herself again.
 
Like I said, he is a good dog, I just want to make sure he gets along with our female.  That is a priority.
 
Let me ask this...about how long before you can really see how they dogs will interact together?  Weeks, Months?
 
Thanks again for your help!
 
 
 

Let me ask this...about how long before you can really see how they dogs will interact together? Weeks, Months?

 
First off, I think getting that porcupine quill out probably helped him feel much, much better.  Youch, I can't even imagine how bad that must've hurt.  Animals can definitely react aggressively when they're in pain, but it hadn't really sounded like that was what was going on.  As for the time reference, my 2 girls seemed to get along fantastic for a couple of months.  They played very much like yours but not so much anymore.  Sassy loves to steal the toy and have Buffy (the older dog) chase her.  Buffy got tired of that game a long time ago though.  They used to roughhouse too, making lots of noise and mostly Sassy allowed Buffy to be on top, but they'd change ositions too.  Now they NEVER do that and I'm guessing it's because after some of the ugly fights they had, neither wants to start something and have it get ugly.  My dogs go months with no problem.  Last fight was last Sept as a matter of fact.  It happened because Sassy thought Buffy was sneaking into the dog food in the garage and went after her.  It was different that any of the other fights, so it always makes it hard to understand.
If you think this may be something they can work out (and my opinion is that they will determine this, not you), then I again suggest at least contacting a behaviorist and discussing it and possibly having them observe the dogs together. 

As long as you see open mouths and a reasonable back and forth style of play, that's normal - and, yes - it's good.  Is it possible that they just had an initial squabble and have come to terms with who is in charge?  If so, maybe hope it could work out.
A shelter pup usually adjusts within 2-3 months. 
If you decide to keep him, based on your second description of the interaction between them, the key would be to adopt a leadership role yourself, teach them both a good "leave it" command (leave it can mean leave the other dog, not just the icky thing laying on the sidewalk LOL). 
Train them separately and take them both to classes where they will both have to interact with dogs that aren't each other!  And, keep socializing them until they are both adults.

If you think this may be something they can work out (and my opinion is that they will determine this, not you), then I again suggest at least contacting a behaviorist and discussing it and possibly having them observe the dogs together.

 
Having just reread my post - I realized this didn't sound at all how I meant it (sorry).  What I was trying to say is that I don't think it's possible for us to establish who is or isn't alpha or dominant.  I tried doing that with Buffy, figuring she was older and was there first, but I think our efforts made things more confusing.  We decided that they needed to know first that we were the alpha and let them figure out the rank status of each other, themselves.  Hope that makes more sense.

That does make sense, thanks for the clarification.  I sorta see that too because we want the Female to be teh dominate one, but I can see already where she gives in...especially on turf issues.  (not food!  Never get in the way of a Lab and their food! ha ha).
 
I'll see how they do over the next few days.
 

Thanks all for the posts.  I do have a follow-up question that perhaps should be in its own post, but it looks like from these posts there is some disagreement with pairing up dogs and their ages.
 
Obviously there isn't a exact formula to age and sex of when to pair up dogs, but is there a steadfast rule?
It seems like some people say if possible, wait until the first pup (dog) is 2yrs or so before you bring in another dog.  Then it seems that others say if you wait too long it can be hard for the first dog to accept the new dog.
 
I will even take it one step further.  Is it their any reason to think that one dog is better than two?  Do dogs really care one way or the other?  If a person was to add a dog to their current one dog family what would you recommend as the optimal mix?  (male/female....male/male....female/female..... same age/same age...... older/younger paired)
 
I would love to hear what you all have to say!
Thanks!
 

Update on the pairing:
Its day 6 of full interaction.   One thing I have noticed...our female (12 months) will engage the male (8 months) to play or tug...or just get in his face like "hey I'm going to bug you"...but I have never seen the male do this (originate the action).  Is that common for one to be the engager...and the other the engagie or is that a sign of noncompatibility for the male?
 
They seem to be OK with each other ordinarily...like they can lay next to each other and what not...but not a lot of engagement between them (besides the few times as mentioned above).  They still get into some tuffs over toys/bones and sometimes people. 
 
One other observation:  I'm very comfortable around one dog, we have always had one, but two dogs I dont' know much. 
So what I have noticed is they mouth each other alot (which I assumed is normal) but it seems to be more biting (not necessarily mean) but more actual biting and not just mouth wrestling as I like to call it.  For example...they come to each other and sorta start mouth wrestling but then pretty quick...one will start to bite/pinch the other one someplace on the mouth...usually right on the muzzle.  Especially the male...he is more of a pincher...where the lab...she tries to get more of her whole mouth over his head.
 
Is that just the breeds?  (Female=lab  Male=border collie/Doby cross) 
Is that normal play?  I don't have a clue really what is normal.  I thought I did...because our female always plays with the other pup (ssame age) across the street and they more plan wrestle...and play tug...they also do the mouth wrestling as well, but never seems so bitie...but maybe I just haven't been as observent.
 
Last comment/observation:  Is it also normal or is this a sign of noncompatibility that when we went for a walk in our field next to our house...we took the neighbors dogs with us...I wanted to see how they all interacted.  Well the new male was much more engaged with the other dogs then with our female.  Is that just because they are "new" and so they are different and more interesting? 
 
I don't think our female is no saint by any means.  She can be a little rough (she is like a little linebacker) when she plays.  She is 70Ilbs and very "good" at using her weight to her advantage.  Perhaps the new male (only about 45Ilbs) doesn't care for that type of play?  Most dogs probably wouldn't like to be tossed around all the time...so I also wonder if that has something to do with the lack of the Male to engage play with the Female because he knows he will not come out on top.
 
Just some more observations for you guys to look at and give feedback on if you desire.
 
Thanks

I think all the intereactions you're describing when they play sound totally normal.  My girls used to have a great time play fighting and there was lots of mouthing and play biting (including the muzzle area) and Sassy was very vocal.  They'd mostly focus on pulling on the neck area and it was common for the collars to get pulled off in the play.  I'd sometimes see that one looked more tired of the play than the other and eventually she'd give the msg "leave me alone" and it'd end just fine.  As long as the playing isn't leading to any fighting or either of them seeming afraid (trying to get away), then I wouldn't worry about it.  My older lab-x, Buffy, is much more demonstrative than Sassy and even now, she will sort of herd her around and air bite her face.  Sassy doesn't seem to mind, so I don't intervene other than now and then to say "okay, Buffy  that's enough".  Their playing or play-fighting never, ever led them to get into a fight.  Fights were always over a perceived high-value item, which could've been us, a toy, a bone or one time, a clump of dirt [].
 
As for the interaction with the neighbors dog, I'd say it's more that this dog is like a "new" friend and there's more curiosity.  Sassy actually plays the best with our neighbor's lab, who's a male and more her size and has the same play style (run, run, run) than Buffy does. 

HA!  Sorry...the part about fighting over a clump of dirt just made me laugh.  Funny!  []