Dog Community

How do I correct bad behavior?

Posted : 4/24/2006 2:55:47 PM

I am hoping someone can give me some advice with this. It is my cattle dog Lucy. She is a little over a year old and has been a handfull since day one. I have worked with her a lot and will say she is a great dog - we love her to death. My husband says she is just "tempermental", I say she thinks she's alpha (she was the one barking at my older dog for those who remember me). Anyway, I have practiced NILIF with her since the beginning and it has worked really well. We didn't practice it totally because my husband wouldn't go along with it and I couldn't enforce it if he wouldn't back me up. She has always been allowed to sleep with us and is allowed on the couch - those are the No No's. Well last night she went too far and hubby finally agreed we have a problem.

My husband and the dogs were already in bed when I tried to climb in. Lucy was in my spot so I went to move her. She growled. I moved my hands down to move the sheet she was laying on and she bit me - she didn't break skin, but it was a bite and it is NOT acceptable. I went and got her leash and was going to put it on (I have done this in the past when she has been bucky and I will lead her to her crate for a short time out, which works for her. I know the crate shouldn't be used as punishment, but the few times she's been in it for a cool down time has worked). Anyway, I came back with the leash and she growled again. I said forget it and went to sleep on the couch - I wasn't about to be bitten. I went back in a short time later after she settled in over by my husband's feet.

We will be doing 100% NILIF now that my husband agrees. She will sleep in her crate until she can behave and will not be on the furniture unless invited (she is NOT going to like this at all). I will put her leash on her so that I can easily take ahold of it and not have to worry about being bitten, but WHAT am I supposed to do as a correction? In the past I've done time outs, but I don't want to over do that either. Can anyone give me any suggestions? I can't chance she bites someone else, but I need help!!! She is my baby, but I won't allow this rebellion either!

Any suggestions are appreciated and thanks in advance......

faol

Posted : 4/24/2006 3:13:58 PM

It really sucks when you can see the signs of something heading in the wrong direction, but everyone else just scoffs at you and it's not til' you are proven right until they believe you and by then it's sometimes too late.

Your dog needs to be demoted fast, and not with violence. You probably need professional help, this is the type of situation that can escalate quickly.

schleide

Posted : 4/24/2006 3:23:18 PM

Hi there [

] your Lucy sounds a lot like my Wesley, and your husband sounds a lot like my husband LOL!! I am not a trainer, but I can tell you what our trainer has us doing with Wesley. First, you are probably doing exactly right with really strict NILIF... also, we are now leashing Wesley so that we don't ever have to confront him in a way that might endanger us (I, like you, would have walked away from her after the bite rather than confronting her if you had no way to safely do so)... With the leash, if he is on the couch (where he is not allowed) and doesn't get off when I tell him "off", there is no repetition of the command , I just use the leash to guide him off (no emotion, just matter of fact) and then immediately have him sit on the floor and praise him for his good sit. With commands Wesley knows, I am now telling Wesley once what I want him to do and he has a choice, do it on his own - now, or I will help him do it (ie - light pressure on rear end for "sit" or using leash to reel him in for "come") and then praising once he is doing the right thing. I am not sure this is the approach everyone would take, some on this forum are probably opposed to any sort of physical manipulation and many are opposed to any physical "corrections;" others, are not. I am not about to get in the middle of that debate, considering I do not think I know enough to give an informed opinion... Hopefully, some people with both perspectives will come along and give suggestions so that you can pick and choose what you feel is right for your situation... Good luck - and if you hit on anything that really really works, please post - it sounds like we have got some similar issues going on!!

Sandy

Posted : 4/24/2006 4:05:04 PM

Schleide, thank you for your advice. We are not in an area where the behaviorist/trainers are located. The nearest behaviorist is about a 40 minutes away, so that won't help. When we did puppy classes they tried to teach me to use the alpha roll, etc. and I found out quickly that that was NOT going to work! Then for obedience class they separated us, literally in the corner, to keep Lucy away from the other dogs (she barked at them). By the end of class we were in with the group and she was one of the best behaved, but it was not with much thanks to them.

I will try doing the sit and stays. I just don't know what else to do and it is just so frustrating! She really is a good girl most of the time, she just gets really irritable! Last night was the first time she actually bit me. She usually air snaps and growls. Its too bad that that is what it took to convince my husband! Sorry, I'm just venting now - thanks for listening.

Sandy

Posted : 4/24/2006 4:07:42 PM

Faol - I don't want to use violence, that is why I posted here looking for some help. I'm hoping with the leash on all the time and strict NILIF will be enough to step her down a notch or two.

schleide

Posted : 4/24/2006 5:06:53 PM

With most behaviorists, you would probably only need to meet with them once or twice for an evaluation, and then you can follow up by phone with questions and stuff as you go along... so maybe the one 40 minutes away would work (if it is a good behaviorist and you are comfortable with the methods he or she uses etc.)??

faol

Posted : 4/24/2006 5:09:16 PM

No, i know you're a good doggie parent or you wouldn't have made the effort to come here.

I know how scary it can be to have an unpredictable dog. When Zoe started nipping I started NILIF right away and it worked. It's really difficult when you can't get everyone to understand why it's so important that a dog not be given alpha status, from what I've read, they can just not handle it.

spiritdogs

Posted : 4/24/2006 5:45:06 PM

What I have expressed before on this forum is that my first option is always positive. I would use the leash as you are now doing, and I might even "help" my dog to be successful at doing as I ask. The one caveat I would offer is that I would only do that *if* I know that my dog absolutely understands the command I have issued - if you think your dog knows "lie down", for example, you can test it by saying "lie down" but not making any physical movement whatsoever. We often find that dogs understand our body language and have not yet made the verbal association. Secondly, I would make certain the dog has heard the command - we all know what it's like when we are engrossed in something and someone says something that we need them to repeat LOL. Once those two conditions are met, I have no problem with physically showing the dog what is required. But, I would guide, not force, since force brings resistance - not what you are after. And, once I get the desired response, I would mark it and reward quickly.
I do not believe you must physically manipulate the dog to teach a behavior. Most of the time, you can lure, shape, or capture behaviors in a positive framework.
One way you can insist on a behavior that your dog knows but doesn't like to do...ask for him to do it at feeding time. If his response is not immediate, the dinner goes away till tomorrow. Some dogs are easily influenced in this way, and they won't starve over one missed meal. A colleague of mine is fond of saying that the rabbit doesn't always run by at 5:00 when you're out hunting dinner. [sm=lol.gif]

Sandy

Posted : 4/25/2006 9:09:48 AM

I thought that I would check back in this morning. I wasn't back online last night so I wasn't able to answer either Faol or Spiritdog. Faol - I agree with you on people not understanding the importance of something until things are totally out of control. I'm confident that I'll be able to turn Lucy's behavior around, but it would have been easier if my husband would have worked with me from the beginning! Oh well, I just want to fix it now. Your dogs are beautiful by the way!!

Spiritdog - she understands her commands very well. It was interesting at my house. I left Lucy's leash on and "neither" dog was allowed on the couch or bed. I worked with Lucy almost constantly and rewarded her every time she listened to me. She only tried to get on the couch a couple of times and didn't fight me when I made her get off. It ended up being my older dog that wasn't going to listen to me! She kept trying to get up and refused to move when asked to. I just wasn't expecting that, but we dealt with it.

By the end of the night Lucy was constantly looking at me to see what it was that I wanted her to do. It was actually great (of course she was loving the treats she was receiving, but that is ok too!) My husband is home this morning while I'm at work and he said that he would continue to enforce the rules and praise when they listen. I think it will be ok if we continue to work with her. It has to be.

loveukaykay

Posted : 4/25/2006 11:15:54 AM

I think if you are very strict and consistent with your efforts it will happen, sounds like she is responding already... just make sure you dont ease up just because she is showing signs of getting better. I think it will take a good while before you could ease up a bit... if at all.

Sandy

Posted : 4/25/2006 11:49:18 AM

I think the strict NILIF is going to be a definate lifetime thing with Lucy. I know a lot of it is her breed. I was told numerous times after I got her from the rescue that I didn't know what I was in for and that she needed a firm handler. I would still be lost without her - she is my shadow.

spiritdogs

Posted : 4/25/2006 4:41:33 PM

If she knows her commands, you are way ahead of the game. Now all you have to do is make them relevant. (NILIF) Example: If she wants to go out, she must sit first. If she wants to eat, she must lie down and wait until you lower the bowl to the floor, etc.
I would hand feed her for a week, then feed her by dropping food into the bowl, then feed her for doing some obedience work (work for your food just like mom has to LOL).
Privileges should be removed - no sleeping in bed, not on the couch. Suddenly, the CEO gets demoted, but in a nice way :-)

)
Get a copy of "How to Be the Leader of the Pack and Have Your Dog Love You for It, by Patricia McConnell. There are some good hints there about shifting the balance of power back to the humans.

mudpuppy

Posted : 4/26/2006 9:21:14 AM

If you are doing NILIF properly, you shouldn't need to "correct" her. Manage the environment to help her not engage in bad behavior, set her up to succeed, and then reward her for doing the right thing. The beauty of NILIF is it is non-confrontational. If the dog wants something, he has to behave well or he doesn't get it. Won't lie down for supper? too bad, no supper tonight. No second chances. Walk away. A very stubborn dog might hold out for several days, but every dog will eventually "see the light".

Sandy

Posted : 4/26/2006 11:05:49 AM

I can honestly say that after only a couple of days, I think we'll be ok. I now know that is Me who has been slacking off! Lucy was soooo good last night. She only tried to jump on the couch once or twice, but when I told her off she listened. I'm not sure how much of her listening so well is because of the treats she is getting, but I've been trying to praise with both treats and hugs/pets.

I got up at 2 am to let her out (she was crying to go out) and when we came back in she walked right back into her crate. She never even tried to go into my bedroom. It is the little things that make me happy!

Thanks for the name of the book spiritdog. I'll be looking for it this weekend.

I am still leaving the leash on her just in case she decides to get bucky and threatens to bite again - at least for a few days, maybe longer. I guess that is my "correction" for now. It's there if I need it. Luckily, I haven't needed it. We'll see how it goes, but like I said....as long as I keep up with the NILIF 100%, life should be much easier for both of us.

Janey

Posted : 4/27/2006 12:41:21 AM

Ditto on NILIF rules - keep 'em up! I have an aggressive pooch who will look for the slightest relaxation of the rules and you can just see the misbehavior fire lighting up within him (if his misbehavior were just only getting in the trash! - but alas, it's a little more severe than that). If I'm consistent, along with my husband, we all get along just fine. Also, my pooch is a german shepherd, and I have been told by a behaviorist that they especially need clear guidelines for appropriate behavior - for instance, if he doesn't perform a command he knows, he gets a correction of "eh-eh" or "no," as opposed to waiting for him to perform or ignoring him.