Is "air-barking" something to worry about? (tacran)

    • Gold Top Dog

    Is "air-barking" something to worry about? (tacran)

    Ruby has a behavior we call "air barking."  She moves her mouth as if she's barking, with no sound, other than the occasional "clack" of her teeth if she really snaps her jaws together.  Sometimes you can hear air escaping, but it's hardly audible.  It reminds me of what a little kid might do if you asked him to pretend he was gobbling a cookie or something.

    She usually does this behavior on two occasions:  Standing at the backdoor (trying to get our attention so we'll open the door and let her out) or standing in front of one of us when she wants attention in the evenings (such as when we're watching TV, reading, on the laptop).  We've never considered it a threatening or aggressive behavior -- just a silent version of the vocal demand bark that she uses more often in those situations. 

    We're close friends with our immediate next door neighbors (a retired couple).  From the moment we brought Ruby home, we've tried to do our best to make her a good doggy-neighbor (even though their mini-Schnauzer is still upset she's taken his spot in our house).  The man is a major gardener, so Ruby is used to seeing him daily on the other side of the chainlink fence.  He often hands her treats over the fence, and always has them in his pockets when he comes into our yard or into the house.  She likes him, but she knows he's the "treat guy" and gets too excited, jumping up, etc.  We continue to work on that, admittedly without 100% success.

    Yesterday he told DH that Ruby came to the fence and "snapped her jaws and showed her teeth" and he felt frightened.  Just prior to that, he and I had been chatting at the fence, and she took off doing zoomies at 100mph, including a few skids into the fence, which is a usual show of energy most evenings during her "witching hour."  I didn't see her do it, but we're 99% sure it was the air-barking thing, demanding he toss a treat over or engage with her somehow.  We told our neighbor of this habit and asked him if he was sure she "showed her teeth," as in curling her lips back, but he couldn't be sure.  They come over for dinner periodically, so we'll have them over soon and see if she does the air-bark so he can see if it's the same thing.

    Now I'm worried we've misinterpreted it as a relatively benign behavior (i.e., a silent way of demanding attention, not aggressive).  Even if it isn't an aggression display, have we been wrong not to discourage it or try to eliminate it entirely?  We may be over-analyzing this, but since she's a pittie mix, we're very sensitive to things that might add to the prejudice that already surrounds her.  We don't want her to do things that really scare people.

    Any thoughts or suggestions?  Thanks for reading this novel!

    • Gold Top Dog
    I wouldn't say I'm an expert by any means, but there is a dog I walk once a week who does this. When he was a puppy, he would bark, but as he got older it turned into this air bark (nice term!). I have never been concerned by it; it is, like you said, a way he demands attention or treats. I'm interested to see what others say, though.
    • Gold Top Dog
    It is hard to say without seeing it but this sounds like learned behavior to me. Something she did for attention which was rewarded by the door being opened or playing with her. Lily doesn't air bark, but she does bark for attention (it is a high pitched shatter glass type of a sound, ugh) and while it is rude behavior on her part, it isn't aggressive. I find it hard to believe your dog would act aggressively to the neighbor who feeds her treats all the time, but you never know. Btw, the showing the teeth thing is a submissive gesture too. There are 2 dogs in our sar group who show their teeth to me every time they see me. Anyway, like I said, it is hard to know without seeing it.
    • Gold Top Dog

    Jewlieee
    It is hard to say without seeing it but this sounds like learned behavior to me. Something she did for attention which was rewarded by the door being opened or playing with her

    I tend to agree with this but it is hard to say without seeing the behavior.  As for the neighbor's comment, that too is hard to interpret without seeing her body language.  Showing of teeth, as Julie said, is often a sign of submission.  Ask the neighbor if she had her lips pulled back or was just showing her front teeth (upper lip pulled up) as that is what I interpret as a submissive grin.  Some dogs show more teeth than others when grinning submissively. Again, overall body language is going to be the most helpful guide.  Does she display submissive body language to this neighbor when he's at the house?

    You might be able to extinguish the behavior if you never respond to her when she's air barking. It might take a while if she's been successful in the past.  Sometimes the behavior gets worse when you first try to extinguish it so be prepared for some real barking when the air barking doesn't work.

    • Gold Top Dog

     I love the term 'air bark!"

    An air snap is something to worry about.  An air bark is just a polite beg for attention, IMO.   As to what happened with the neighbor, hmm, not sure.

    Would it help if he just STOPPED paying attention to her?  No treats, no reaching over the fence, just go about his business?  Of course, now she is expecting him to have treats, so it will take time to break her of this.  Just a thought, I'm not sure.

    • Gold Top Dog

    I'm going to play devil's advocate here and suggest something else. 

    When this occurs, you say it's often at times of high concentration?  Does she do it repeatedly or just one time?  Can you immediately get her concentration back?

    What you are describing almost sounds like "fly catching" which isn't a learned behavior at all but rather a small petit-mal type seizure.  How to tell the difference?  it's tough to be honest.

    Ms. Kee Shu (the little old lady peke we had) did it CONSTANTLY.  In fact she had a whole series of little repetitive behaviors that went with it -- but the thing that made it easier to diagnose was the fact that you couldn't get her attention easily to break the chain of them.

     Tinkerbell's were much much more difficult to determine.  Hers is literally more on par with a facial twitch -- and the thing that ultimately defined it to the vets as petit mal or "pre-seizure" stuff was the timing.  Never when she's at rest or relaxed -- always at a time of high concentration or stress.  Sometimes in front of a human, sometimes not -- but VERY OFTEN **worse** at a new moon or full moon.

    This is honestly NOTHING you want to put her on a big medicine like phenobarb for -- the Chinese herbs often completely obliterate these (which is another indicator they are not behaviors, but rather neural/brain stuff). 

    The big seizure meds all have fierce side effects and just aren't appropriate for this sort of thing (once begun you can't stop them).  It's typically something an allopathic (regular) vet isn't going to prescribe for anyway.  It's taken a while to hit on the right combination of herbs for Tink -- anything that was tried HELPED a great deal, but by tweaking it we've pretty well completely obliterated them. 

    Given that the look is somewhat scarey (at least to this neighbor) it's something you may want to pursue.  Talk to you regular vet FIRST.  If you can possibly get a video of it do so but write down what was going on at the time and the time of day. 

    Kee's were easy -- she did ti ALL the time, and it was danged near impossible to get the mind engaged because she virtually lived in a constant near seizure state.  But wow -- once we got it under control there was a really NICE little dog under all that weirdness.

    Tink's have been more difficult -- pugs are well known for having a ton of seizure type issues and we certainly know she was abysmally badly bred.  The herbs she's on aren't the type of thing to depress her or make her at all sleepy.  The one that she's on is often used for some of the autism spectrum -- it doesn't 'depress' at all -- just enables her to focus without it triggering the "twitch". 

    I think what everyone says above is likely germaine -- DEFINITELY treat it as a behavior to start with but I'd encourage you to keep your mind/eyes open to the possibility that it may not be voluntary/learned at all. 

    I'm not trying to be confusing here -- just offering another thot.  When we first began to notice this with think she was almost 3 years old.  David was convinced it was learned.  I wasn't sure.  But as we began to catalogue "when" and particularly the time of the month it was at its most intense?  Then he began to change his mind -- and once we started herbs and it helped but changed no other aspects of personality, etc. he, too, became convinced. 

    She may get SO ramped up seeing this guy -- and even going to the fence could be sufficient stimulus -- that it may trigger the type of concentration that causes this to happen.  Trying some counter-conditioning will likely tell you a lot because if it's neural conditioning won't change it, but it may calm her enough to lessen it for sure.

     

    • Gold Top Dog

    Thanks for all the great comments -- I knew you guys would have good feedback! 

    Julie, you mentioned the submissive showing of teeth.  I've seen that, too --- a former neighbor's dog used to do that everytime she saw us.  She was a very nervous dog who was quite fearful of most people, but when she did like someone, she came towards you wriggling all over, with a huge grin that looked like a snarl because she pulled her lips so far back.  We called it "smiling," but we knew her well and knew that was how she greeted us.  Ruby's teeth definitely don't show to that degree -- they show the same way you'd see teeth if she were just doing a "regular" bark.

    I do think she learned this behavior, whether she came to us with it already and we continued to reinforce it, or if she randomly gave it a try after we adopted her, and we "fell for it" by opening the door or engaging play.  That's totally our fault, especially with opening the door.  We usually ignore it when she demands play very late in the evenings, then she usually gets her Nylabone or a toy on her own.   But I have to admit I prefer a silent way of asking for our attention rather than her audible demand bark.  It's a shrill, yiping sound that makes you jump out of your skin.  Hearing a quick clack of teeth at the back door is less nerve wracking!  :-)

    The rest of her body language when she does this is normal -- no hackles raised or anything -- just looking at us, alert face, her tail is raised or wagging, ears relaxed, not pulled back.  Our neighbor couldn't describe those details because it happened quickly when she ran over to the fence, did it, then took off again.

    Callie, I've not seen the type of thing you described "in person," but I've read about it and seen videos.  I'm pretty sure this isn't something connected to a seizure or OCD behavior (e.g., we can easily stop it by interrupting her), but in light of all this, we're definitely going to be paying closer attention to when it happens, if there are triggers, other patterns or body language involved, etc.  It's good to be aware of all possibilities!

    Dashing off to work now.  Thanks for the great comments already!

    • Gold Top Dog

    calliecritturs
    What you are describing almost sounds like "fly catching" which isn't a learned behavior at all but rather a small petit-mal type seizure

    "fly catching" is also known to be OCD type behavior and not seizure related.  I know two terriers who do this and it's strictly behavioral.  What Tracy is describing sounds nothing like this type of behavior to me. 

    • Gold Top Dog

    JackieG

    "fly catching" is also known to be OCD type behavior and not seizure related.  I know two terriers who do this and it's strictly behavioral.  What Tracy is describing sounds nothing like this type of behavior to me. 

    Again I'll let the vets have their own medical opinons -- both my regular and TCVM vets both agreed Kee's "fly-catching" (and Tink's 'twitches';) are neural and not behavioral.  I've never seen "fly catching" type of behavior that was actually considered "behavioral" -- meaning exactly that ... *I* have never seen it -- not that it doesn't exist, but I've no personal experience with seeing it.  Kee's had been termed 'fly catching' by her former owner and the vets but particularly with her (which doesn't appear by Tracy's description to be the case with Ruby) -- you couldn't get her to mentally disconnect from it at all easily.  My allopathic vet suggested seizure meds early on, but was more than pleased to have the input of the UF vets who suggested the herbs be tried first.

    I can't be at all sure from what Tracy describes what it is sufficiently to say either way -- but it's simply something I think would be worth discussing with her vet and keeping an open mind about.    Very very subjective and individual.  I just offered it as something to consider.

    • Gold Top Dog

    calliecritturs
    both my regular and TCVM vets both agreed Kee's "fly-catching" (and Tink's 'twitches';) are neural and not behavioral.

     I wasn't disputing what your vets told you about your dogs. :)   Yes, it doesn't hurt to consider all possibilites but I didn't think this behavior, as described, warranted a trip to the vet.

    Tracy, you can google videos of "fly catching ocd" to see what the compulsive behavior looks like if you're curious.

    • Gold Top Dog

    I saw a video of some OCD behaviors like imaginary fly-catching and tail chasing (it was in a seminar about dog and cat behavior issues).  What we're calling "air barking" (like playing air guitar - Ha!) doesn't look like that.  But, I am going to be more observant when I see her doing it.

    Ruby does like to try to catch real flies!  If one gets in the house, she will leap in the air to try to catch it, and she's been successful a couple times.  If they land on a window, it can be a problem because she tries to hit them with a paw, and she's nearly pulled down a blind or two!

    More often than not, our neighbor is ignoring her when he's in his yard.  She will stand at the corner where our gates connect, and she will wait for him to notice her.  He gives her something if he's coming to that area to weed, go out the gate, get a yard tool, etc.  If he's coming into our yard to bring us vegetables or talk to us, then he has a pocket of treats for her (that's when she jumps).  Otherwise, she watches him quietly while he digs around his garden.  If their dog comes outside, then we have a barking duet at the fence, but that's another issue for another thread!

    • Gold Top Dog

    Freedom
    An air snap is something to worry about

    I'm curious as to why an air snap is something to worry about. I'd much rather see an air snap than a real bite.

    • Gold Top Dog
    Chaos and Bean both "air bark". They do it on command. It is an attention seeking behavior, for sure, from them. I taught them to "say please" and rewarded quieter and quieter barks. They'll both do it without being prompted if they're really excited about something a human has in their hand. My friend's GSD does the same behavior on command, but she calls it "whisper".
    • Gold Top Dog

    Jennie, thanks for your comments!  You gave me a perspective I hadn't thought of before (duh!).  Maybe we should attach a word/command to it when she offers the air bark.  I like the concept of "saying please."  Surely, no one can interpret that as rude or aggressive behavior, right?!  Wink  And calling it a "whisper" is nice, too.

    As I said above, I really dislike her shrill demand bark, so I'd rather keep the air bark as an alternative!

    • Gold Top Dog
    I name all sorts of natural behaviors, and the sillier the name you come up with, the better the "trick"Big Smile I find a lot of things they do naturally to be useful behaviors for interrupting unwanted behavior. Hard to bark when you're busy saying please!