Is my dog not the right one for me?

  I agree with Bonita, as well, that this probably is not the right dog for you, especially since you already have a terrier. I'd really be worried about something happening to your Jack Russell. They may get along fine, for a time, but as the bull terrier gets older things may change and it won't take much for him to hurt your little dog. It may be something as simple as the Jack Russell going through a doorway too close to him and the Bull Terrier reacts aggressively to it. Things that he didn't mind before may change as he gets older. It is something that will probably need management forever. It is not just a matter of being able to train the dog and think then you will not have any problems. The training is most important, of course, but it will be an on going training and management issue. Not that it can't be done but it will take a lot of work and understanding of the dogs. You will have to learn how to accurately read your dogs, other dogs interactions with your dogs and people's interactions with the dogs. You really do sound as though you are trying to do everything right. Perhaps you might be able to make it work, if you read some of the books suggested and are able to connect with a trainer who can really help you. Some of the things that have been suggested to you already, I am sorry to say, left me really wondering what was the problem with these trainers. I'm speaking of the two trainers you connected with, not about the comments from this forum. That video really had me scared. Standing there and staring at the dog and trying to tell him quiet, when he doesn't even understand what it means. It is more like you are teasing him because he is stuck inside the cage. He probably at first is just looking for attention but the longer you stand there not giving him attention is just going to irritate him. And especially, since when he becomes quiet you walk away. He wants attention and you leave when he stops asking for it. That just is all very confusing to me. Can I also suggest that he may need a bit larger crate. I might be wrong and maybe he is a bit smaller than I'm thinking. Saying all of these things, I feel like I'm sounding critical. Well, I'm not trying to come across that way, It's just that some of these issues really make me nervous for both the dog and the people around him. I thought the same as Bonita that the interaction with your grandmother may have just been a puppy rough housing and misunderstood. I do wish you all the best luck with whatever decision you make.

Thanks again for the replies. I really appreciate all the help.

And I most definitely understand that rehoming him may not be the best option until I can find someone to work on his behavior. However, I'm really trying my best I can to resolve this on my own (with a trainer, of course).

I've never noticed any issues with his hearing but I may look into that with the vet. And also, I should note that I just bought him a bigger crate today.. :)

I am located in Davis, California but also travel to Fremont, California with the dogs every weekend. I am currently looking at trainers but really am not sure where I should look. I've searched the APDT and IAABC, but I'm not sure who to choose and whether or not these types of credentials are as great as they sound? As I had mentioned earlier, I talked to a behaviorist already and spent quite a bit of money and am trying to do a bit more research before I dive into another one.

That being said, I would like to share what the first behaviorist had mentioned today on the phone as I was able to get in touch with him. The thing about him is that he did have Oliver for 14 days so he actually saw what was going on, but then again, I can see why his methods don't really seem like a good idea. He mentioned Oliver needs to be out of his crate like Spot, to feel like he's part of the family. Jennea, (my girlfriend in the Video) needs to be assertive, not calm like she is in the video when telling Oliver to be quiet. He again mentioned Oliver to have the shock collar and to use it in this way:

Our primary goal is to have Oliver out more often (under supervision) but just feeling less cautious of what he may or may not do. When he gets sleepy, that's when we've noticed he gets aggressive (when we make noises or move around). The behaviorist said to press the shock button as soon as we notice any type of aggression. He should not be muzzled or on leash.

When I heard this, it just seemed like a disaster waiting to happen. I think I know Oliver well enough that if I shocked him when he's already irritated, he will get even more aggressive. Am I wrong to think this?

Like I said, I'm determined to work on this and make the time to make this work. However, I've spoken to so many behaviorist that tell me different, often time contradicting things that I'm not sure whose advice to take. For instance, I've been told what we're doing in the video is wrong and we should not be challenging the dog like that. The same person told me that the crate should be covered, whereas another person told me to specifically not cover the crate because Oliver needs to get used to it.

I hope everyone understands. Any suggestions or leads to a local behaviorist/trainer would be greatly appreciated.

http://www.avsabonline.org/avsabonline/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=77&Itemid=353

You are right to think that shocking him can potentially cause aggression. I speak here not about your dog specifically, but about aggression as a side effect of punishment I general, sometimes it happens, sometimes it does not. I don't know your area, but perhaps someone else does. You may have to call some of them and see though.

JHNguyen89

Our primary goal is to have Oliver out more often (under supervision) but just feeling less cautious of what he may or may not do. When he gets sleepy, that's when we've noticed he gets aggressive (when we make noises or move around). The behaviorist said to press the shock button as soon as we notice any type of aggression. He should not be muzzled or on leash.

When I heard this, it just seemed like a disaster waiting to happen. I think I know Oliver well enough that if I shocked him when he's already irritated, he will get even more aggressive. Am I wrong to think this?

 

You are correct in thinking that - as I said earlier - others have given good information about many things I am just trying to ensure that you and anyone else who reads this thread realizes that using pain to correct aggression is a HUGE no-no.

I think many are correct in thinking that hearing may be an issue - 

JHNguyen89

When he gets sleepy, that's when we've noticed he gets aggressive (when we make noises or move around)

That really sounds like hearing may be an issue

 

 

You have to understand that fixing an issue like this takes YEARS. And you never really fix it totally. You manage it and ever so slowly you teach the dog to react differently to situations. It takes a very long time unfortunately.

I would stop calling that "behaviorist" all together. He/she is giving you really bad advice.

Jewlieee

You have to understand that fixing an issue like this takes YEARS. And you never really fix it totally. You manage it and ever so slowly you teach the dog to react differently to situations. It takes a very long time unfortunately.

I would stop calling that "behaviorist" all together. He/she is giving you really bad advice.

I completely agree with the above. 

FYI

http://www.therealjackrussell.com/breed/baddog.php 

Also, go to the Bull Terrier Club of America website and read the pdf article concerning whether this breed is right for you.

As for the hearing being a possible issue, it's always possible but the incidents you described in your previous thread don't seem to fit the scenario of a dog startled from sleep.  The dog park incident is also not indicative of a hearing issue causing the dog aggression.  The incident with the grandma also isn't a case of the dog being startled into aggression. 

If you look at the site I posted earlier please read the position statement on dominance theory and the one on punishment.  There is so much info available if you will do your research.  You do need a professional though to guide you in dealing with this dog.  You can't pick a trainer unless you are informed enough to know whether they are qualified to deal with this type of behavior.  Have you asked your vet for a referral to a veterinary behaviorist? 

 

 

I would never leave a dog with anyone who will take the dog for a few days and fix the problems then think they know the dog. The reality is that the dog lives with you and evolves around YOUR lifestyle, not the trainers. The way the dog acts with someone else is going to be much different the way the dog behaves in your own home.  Kinda like a kid spending the weekend with grandma, it is just a little vacation then it is over. The trainer should have little hands on work with the actual dog, you should be the one doing most of the work to set yourself up in the right direction. The trainer needs to evaluate your handling skills, methods and guide you on what your are doing right or wrong.

APDT promotes positive training methods.  But than again anyone can take the test and be qualified to train a dog so be careful.  Look at the individual rather then the organization.  Read reviews, there are many online. Even ask your vet about trainers in the area, some vets can make really good recomendations.  That would be a start, hopefully someone in the area knows more and can share the info with you.

Oh you're in CA. You didn't go to that trainer who gaurantees lifetime training did you? And you pay for it up front?

A key part of working with a dog who has shown these behaviors is that you learn how to recognize the dogs body language and you learn how to manage situations as well as the dogs reactions. You can't learn those things unless you are working with the dog yourself, one on one with a professional. You need to do some counter conditioning, read the books that were referenced in this thread, and contact a trainer who uses positive methods to work through aggression.

It has probably been said before, but just in case, you should stop taking your dog to the dog park. Dog parks will escalate this behvavior.

JHNguyen89

I've searched the APDT and IAABC, but I'm not sure who to choose and whether or not these types of credentials are as great as they sound?

 

I sent you a private message with a list of trainers/behaviorists certified by the IACP

http://www.canineprofessionals.com/FindAProfessional

 

People who have legitimate graduate credentials in animal behavior can be found here: http://www.dacvb.org/ http://www.animalbehavior.org/ABSAppliedBehavior/caab-directory Another organization you could try is: http://www.associationofanimalbehaviorprofessionals.com/ At least they are committed to using positive methods. IACP is a trainer organization that has no problem with its members using shock collars, and other harsh methods. I don't know if you are comfortable with that, but I certainly would not be, given that there are many studies that show that when we use aggression, dogs generally get more aggressive, not less. Also, the American Veterinary Society of Animal Behavior recommends AGAINST using any trainer or behavior consultant who uses dominance theory.

JHNguyen89

Thanks again for the replies. I really appreciate all the help.

And I most definitely understand that rehoming him may not be the best option until I can find someone to work on his behavior. However, I'm really trying my best I can to resolve this on my own (with a trainer, of course).

I've never noticed any issues with his hearing but I may look into that with the vet. And also, I should note that I just bought him a bigger crate today.. :)

I am located in Davis, California but also travel to Fremont, California with the dogs every weekend. I am currently looking at trainers but really am not sure where I should look. I've searched the APDT and IAABC, but I'm not sure who to choose and whether or not these types of credentials are as great as they sound? As I had mentioned earlier, I talked to a behaviorist already and spent quite a bit of money and am trying to do a bit more research before I dive into another one.

That being said, I would like to share what the first behaviorist had mentioned today on the phone as I was able to get in touch with him. The thing about him is that he did have Oliver for 14 days so he actually saw what was going on, but then again, I can see why his methods don't really seem like a good idea. He mentioned Oliver needs to be out of his crate like Spot, to feel like he's part of the family. Jennea, (my girlfriend in the Video) needs to be assertive, not calm like she is in the video when telling Oliver to be quiet. He again mentioned Oliver to have the shock collar and to use it in this way:

Our primary goal is to have Oliver out more often (under supervision) but just feeling less cautious of what he may or may not do. When he gets sleepy, that's when we've noticed he gets aggressive (when we make noises or move around). The behaviorist said to press the shock button as soon as we notice any type of aggression. He should not be muzzled or on leash.

When I heard this, it just seemed like a disaster waiting to happen. I think I know Oliver well enough that if I shocked him when he's already irritated, he will get even more aggressive. Am I wrong to think this?

Like I said, I'm determined to work on this and make the time to make this work. However, I've spoken to so many behaviorist that tell me different, often time contradicting things that I'm not sure whose advice to take. For instance, I've been told what we're doing in the video is wrong and we should not be challenging the dog like that. The same person told me that the crate should be covered, whereas another person told me to specifically not cover the crate because Oliver needs to get used to it.

I hope everyone understands. Any suggestions or leads to a local behaviorist/trainer would be greatly appreciated.

If that person had your dog for fourteen days, my guess would be that your dog already got shocked. I watched your video and made a comment. You are acknowledging the dog when he growls, but not when he's good. It should be the other way around. I think this is too much dog for you, but if you have contacted the breeder and they haven't gotten back to you, my guess is you didn't purchase from a very reputable breeder. Did you buy this dog off the Internet or from a pet store? I ask because you mentioned AKC registration. FYI, registration alone is not a guarantee of quality OR that your breeder was reputable. For your sake, I hope the breeder was, but I'm concerned. The first place to start with a dog like this is a veterinarian behaviorist, in my opinion. I posted a few links in my other post here. If you want to private message me your zip code, I can try to find you a local resource.

kpwlee

I really am posting to say for anyone that reads this thread a "shock collar" is absolutely the wrong tool for an aggressive dog.

 

Tashmoo5454

I can't imagine how a shock collar or a water bottle will help a dog with fear aggression

 

JHNguyen89

The behaviorist said to press the shock button as soon as we notice any type of aggression. He should not be muzzled or on leash.

When I heard this, it just seemed like a disaster waiting to happen. I think I know Oliver well enough that if I shocked him when he's already irritated, he will get even more aggressive. Am I wrong to think this?

I would agree that an owner that is NOT under a trainer's supervision using an e-collar is a disaster waiting to happen. You could use one the right way under a certified trainer's supervision or if you decide not to use one that is fine. People against them have never used one before and have never been taught how to use one, therefore their brain cant grasp how it works.

Here is a video to illustrate how an e-collar worked with an aggressive dog, you dont use the "death row electric chair" level either

http://youtu.be/hwe2Ga9yLLQ

And to not high jack the thread about e-collars, anyone that decided not to use them then they can do something else. This is just another tool in case something else fails.

By the way Dr. Ian Dunbar belongs to the IACP

Espencer, I've got no problem with it in certain cases. I haven't used any electronic means, but I've had to implement physical punishment procedures with a person. Without getting into too much detail, his behavior could be life threatening, thus it might be justified. My education is in behavior analysis, I am aware of potential side effects, ways to attempt to minimize the side effects, etc. Part of my training requires that if I am to prescribe a punishment procedure, I would need to tell the person consenting to it the potential harms. if I were to work with a trainer for a dog, I would not work with someone prescribing such a procedure who claims there to be no potential side effects, could not tell me the potential side effects, and was not prepared with strategies to minimize these effects. So there's my two cents, hopefully without going too far off on a tangent, but I offer that as what I would be on the lookout for when choosing someone to work with this or another aggressive dog where's punishment might be considered.

espencer

By the way Dr. Ian Dunbar belongs to the IACP

 

 

Not trying to start any problems here, but I would really like to see a source that tells that Dr Ian Dunbar belongs to the IACP. What I read on the IACP site is quite the opposite to Dr. Ian Dunbar's training and philosophy. I've also heard him speak and that also was very contrary to what I've read on the IACP site.