Calling all dog-walkers and trainers! This is long - sorry

 Thanks so much for replying back to my post.  You have a good point about not all dogs (like humans) are going to like all other dogs.  If this were a case of outright aggression or a situation where they growled or grumbled at each other every time they interacted then I would be more inclined to agree that these dogs should not/could not be walked together.  As it is, they have been walking together consistently since last summer and were used to walking with a larger pack prior to my taking over.  Yes, just like people they will have off days where their temper is shorter, etc but overall there are no issues that I can see that I cannot alleviate (separating them while they rub faces in the grass is the only issue that I have seen) and these dogs do walk on the same side of the stroller, sit quietly together and drink their water together without issue.  That is why I am asking for help to think of things that I should be paying closer attention to.  Known triggers (like the one I realized today), unknown triggers that someone else might have seen/noticed, etc that could help to avoid any future/further conflicts, not just with these two individuals, but with all other dogs as well. 

 As far as letting it escalate into an all out dog fight, please be assured that there was no "letting" on my part.  I looked down and around to check the dogs, looked up to check the traffic and in the intervening moments something occurred and the two decided that they needed to settle some sort of dispute on their own.  Again, this is why I am posting, to gather knowledge and insight from those that might have more/better/different information and knowledge than my own so that I can actively prevent such an event in the future.

Thank you.

 Ok, even if I were to leave my own dog at home there is always the possibility of any dog having an issue with any other dog.  We must remember that they are dogs first and foremost and even though I talk to them all the time, they do not reason the same as I do.  Again, that is why I am asking for suggestions/information/body language and general knowledge that others can spare.

 As for walking 8 dogs at a time, you are right, it is a lot of dogs, it takes a lot of attention and it is a wonderful experience to be able to walk 8 dogs and each and every one of them on a loose leash and I look forward to it each and every day and I believe that the dogs enjoy it too, each and every one of them are excited to see me when I show up.  So, I am looking to for ways to ensure that it continues to be a good experience for all of us. 

Thanks for the help.

If it were me-regardless of what is causing this issue-I'd want to avoid it.  You are doing this as a business now and if one or more of these dogs gets hurt while walking with you,  you are liable.  Do you have insurance?  I'd say divide the dogs up and do another walk or two.  Take your dog on one, the client with another group. 

And, don't take this the wrong way, but as a professional doing this, it is NOT professional to take your own dogs on the walk.  The clients are paying for your attention.  When I pet sat I always had my dog with me whenever possible.  But, she never came along on the client walks. 

I would be concerned that the tension between your dog and the boxer is going to continue to escalate. They started out growling and you corrected them but the correction didn't solve the problem and they took it to the next step with an actual fight. Escalation of aggression can often happen suddenly and though the incident you describe didn't turn into a disaster, it could have.  What if there is no helpful bystander next time?  What happens if one of the combatants redirects toward the little Yorkie?   What happens if you get tangled in eight leashes and are pulled down and one or more dogs escape?

Your question seems to be more about why the boxer rubbing his face on the grass triggers your dog to attack.  I have no idea if this is the trigger without seeing it in person.  If it is the trigger, I don't know why your dog would react that way.  Many people miss a dog's signals or misinterpret what they are seeing.  My point is that it's often helpful to understand why two dogs are aggressing toward each other. But as you try and understand the signals and triggers you are also setting up a scenario that keeps these two together in a situation that you actually have little control over. I agree with the others that you should leave your two dogs at home.  It's your responsibility to keep the client's dogs safe and though you feel confident and empowered, that can change in a heartbeat with little warning. 

 Having your two young children with you adds another layer of concern because ultimately you must put their welfare first, before any of the dogs.  I would not be taking children along in this situation.  It's just too much for one person to handle responsibly if something goes wrong.

Please think about everyone's safety first because often the why of something is overshadowed by the end result.  You can learn a lot about aggression and dog body language if you read the book 'Aggression in Dogs' by Brenda Aloff. 

willowchow

If it were me-regardless of what is causing this issue-I'd want to avoid it.  You are doing this as a business now and if one or more of these dogs gets hurt while walking with you,  you are liable.  Do you have insurance?  I'd say divide the dogs up and do another walk or two.  Take your dog on one, the client with another group. 

And, don't take this the wrong way, but as a professional doing this, it is NOT professional to take your own dogs on the walk.  The clients are paying for your attention.  When I pet sat I always had my dog with me whenever possible.  But, she never came along on the client walks. 

I agree wholeheartedly with Lori.  Your clients' dogs take precedence, and their safety is paramount.  Common sense dictates that if you have any "iffy" behavior, you NOT walk those dogs together, even if it means losing business.  And, truthfully, you won't - what will happen is that word of mouth will spread FAST that you sacrifice rather than put any of your client dogs in danger, and you will not lack for business!  If you continue walking dogs together that escalate into tiffs, someone will see, or something will happen that isn't so benign, and then you'd better watch out for both your reputation and your pocketbook;-)  Dog walking (or any dog-related job where you have actual contact and responsibility for the animal) is a job for someone with behavior knowledge, not just for someone who likes dogs.  So, best thing you can do is to rise above the ordinary peeps who try to do this and get really well educated - go to seminars and watch DVD's  (there are some good "multiple dog" and "how to tell if dogs are going to bite" DVD's - people like Trish King, Patricia McConnell, Sue Sternberg, and others).  There are a ton of dog walkers out there - your job is to be the best educated, most professional, and least likely to make excuses for your own dog - which you should, incidentally, leave at home.  If a dog is injured in a fight, and your dog is involved, you, as the professional, will likely pay the consequences in cold, hard cash, even if it isn't your dog's fault!  FWIW, males of certain breeds have a reputation for being somewhat dog aggressive (Boxers, Dobermans, for example), and females of certain breeds are best kept far apart (Kerry Blue Terriers, for example).  Of course, not all dogs fit the description, but you also need to develop knowledge of breed predispositions to keep your clients' dogs out of harm's way. 

nigguysmom

My flash was that my dog does not like it when the boxers rub their faces on the ground in the grass....

But my big question is why? 

It makes no sense to me,

 It actually doesn't matter 'why'. We are not dogs and as much as we like to think we know why our dogs do what they do, most time it is an educated guess at best. Bottom line is you know there is a problem between these two dogs and given your particular scenario - 8 dogs, 2 kids, +a stroller - that could be problematic IMHO. I think you were lucky someone stepped in. No matter how well behaved the dogs may be, controlling 8 at a time is a challenge and should have 100% of your attention. Personally I think you need a new plan. Less dogs? Less kids? You may want to check the bylaw in your area. Here if you are registered and insured as a dog walker you are limited to 5 dogs at one time. If you are not a dog walker it's 3.

 I want to say thank you to everyone who responded to my post.  I know that everyone has the very best interests of the animals, my boys and myself at heart, but I do feel like a few clarifications on my part are due. 

1.  I did say that I took over a business when in reality, what I did was to continue walking a group of dogs that was used to walking together and letting them join me on my daily walks with my dogs.  My dogs were used to walking with the rest of dogs, so it was a good fit, my dogs get consistent solid exercise everyday, the other dogs would too and the owners are all comfortable with the group.  As for professionalism, I don't really see any issues with the arrangements as all owners knew that they were having their dogs join me on my daily routine, not specifically a business to service only client dogs.

2.  I do not have insurance, but Willowchow makes a very good point that I will look into.  If anyone has any specific information on insurance I would be pleased to have it.  I had not thought about it as I was only doing this walking as a favor to the owners who lost their original dog-walker.

3.   Spiritdogs also makes and excellent point.  Use of common sense.  "Common sense dictates that if you have any "iffy" behavior, you NOT walk those dogs together, even if it means losing business.  And, truthfully, you won't - what will happen is that word of mouth will spread FAST that you sacrifice rather than put any of your client dogs in danger, and you will not lack for business!"  This is more true than anyone can imagine, but I had come to the conclusion last night that I would be altering my route and the two dogs in question wouldn't be walking together any longer.  I think that I was more in shock that it happened and I didn't know why that I still thought (and still do think) that they could walk peacefully together, but it would be just as easy to separate them than not.  So, common sense of separating them is already a done deal.

4.  Now please do not take this the wrong way, but my original post was rather lengthy and probably had more information needed, but I have noticed that in order to help, people request more rather than too little information.  My original request really was for clarification on the behaviors of the dogs, specifically the face-rubbing as a trigger.  Denise made the comment that "It actually doesn't matter 'why'. We are not dogs and as much as we like to think we know why our dogs do what they do, most time it is an educated guess at best."  I agree partially with that.  I do believe that the "why" does matter as it may have some influence on other behaviors.  I also agree whole-heartedly that most of what we really know is an educated guess at best, but that was what I was seeking from people on the forum.

5.  So, again, please do not take my last point negatively, but my was a request for information and it was not truly acknowledged except to imply it wasn't important.  I will check out the book that JackieG referred me to and the DVD's that Spiritdogs suggested, and I hear and understand what everyone has said about separating the two dogs and have already decided that it is the solution that will work for me.  But please, I am asking for help in finding good solid resources to be able to continue enjoying my walks, not looking for people to tell me everything that they think I am doing wrong.  Disagreement is a wonderful thing when it is presented as a way to learn about others, but not when it is presented as the only opinion or way of doing things.

 Thank you for listening/reading my posts.

I understand why you feel a little defensive but look at it from a different perspective. From my point of view, the situation you described raised red flags all over the place.  If it seems like we're just criticizing for the sake of being "right", you've missed the point.  I'm sure none of us is saying these things to argue our opinions, we really don't want to see a disaster happen.

 I'm glad you've come to the same conclusion about splitting the dogs up in smaller groups. I do have one question for you that I don't care if you answer publicly but think about it and have a plan ready, just in case.  What would you do if one of the dogs got away from you during a walk and took off running?   Think about what you would do considering that you have your children with you.  Do you have a plan for that scenario?  You can say that you would never let that happen but believe me, it can happen.  Ask anyone who has worked with dogs long enough and they'll confirm that "stuff happens" even to the most experienced dog people.  It's not that we are disagreeing with you but that we see so much potential for disaster based on our collective experience. 

Ok, on to your original question about why the face rubbing triggers your dog to aggress.  It's impossible to answer because I don't know if that's what actually triggered the event.  Without seeing it or having a very detailed description of both dogs' behavior and body language prior, I couldn't say. An experienced dog behaviorist wouldn't be able to answer your question without having seen the incidents or at least a video.

 Dogs have rich communication skills and learning to read and understand them is a worthy goal for anyone who loves dogs and interacts with them.  There are many great books about dogs and dog behavior.  Karen Pryor, Patricia McConnell, Jean Donaldson are some of my favorite authors.   John Fisher, Bruce Fogel and William Campbell are some others. The best teacher is experience but you have to understand what you're seeing and getting some information about dog behavior will assist in interpreting what you see. 

eta, there is a website called 'dogwise' that is all about dog books, videos, etc.  Check it out. :)

JackieG

I do have one question for you that I don't care if you answer publicly but think about it and have a plan ready, just in case.  What would you do if one of the dogs got away from you during a walk and took off running?   Think about what you would do considering that you have your children with you.  Do you have a plan for that scenario?  You can say that you would never let that happen but believe me, it can happen. 

Jackie I don't mind answering the question.  Yes I have thought about it, a lot.  Luckily I haven't had to deal with it yet (because like you said, ANYTHING can/will happen when you least expect/want it to).  I would do my level best to react the same way I would if I was walking 1 dog and a stroller and it ran away.  

1.  Pray!

2.  Stay calm and start calling the dog, do not start running after it, it will only run away to continue the game.

3.  Grab the stroller & the other dogs and call and start calmly walking in a general direction that is towards the dog and towards a safe location.

4.  As I walk slowly and call, hopefully the dog will come with me and then I can get it close enough to grab a leash.

5.  If the dog bolts and is completely gone.  Get the stroller/dogs to a safe place and then get some treats and go in search of the missing link!

6.  Pray and ask for help!

(This list is completely open to suggestions and or constructive comments.)  

 As for my original question, maybe I'll see if a friend can video the boxers and how they are rubbing their faces and see if anyone can give me some insight into what they are doing or not.  I mean I have seen no other dogs react to that behavior, but it doesn't mean that someone else won't now that Nigel is not walking with them.  My concern is that it could trigger other dogs and or I may be completely overreacting and it is a perfectly harmless behavior, that is the problem, I don't know and would feel much better if I had some guidance. 

Again, thanks for the post and now let's just move past the defensiveness and the criticizing and share some good information and knowledge.

Your question of the dog rubbing his face in the grass being the trigger interests me.

 People pretty much acknowledge that dogs do exhibit definate rude behaviors like face to face dominating stances, challenges etc, and pretty much agree these things can be triggers in upsetting a dog.  You are assuming (and may be right) that rubbing the face on the ground may be the trigger.  But what if when you looked away something else actually happened and you caught the tail end of the behavior of the face rubbing, that maybe that face rubbing had nothing to do with what the insult was?

Did your dog attack the boxer whose face was rubbing the grass, perhaps taking advantage of the boxer's guard being down after an unknown behavior insulted him?

Just a different perspective...and I would be interested if you find out it was indeed definative or not as I love animal behavioral mysteries!

 I don't know if it really is the trigger or not.  I believe it is, but have no idea why because I saw it when the dogs were walking peacefully together and we stopped for a break.  Both boxers started to rub in the grass and Nigel grumbled.  If there was some other behavior then it was subtle enough that I didn't pick up on it even though I actually watched the whole interaction.  I was able to correct the grumble immediately because I was actually watching the boxers lay down and rub their faces in the grass.  After the correction, the boxers got up and we finished our water break and moved on peacefully as if nothing had happened.  When the big incident happened, I checked the dogs and the boxers were starting to rub while we were waiting for the ok to walk, but I had never before made any connection between that behavior and a possible trigger so I hadn't stopped them from rubbing.  As for Nigel going for either boxer, it is only the one that there is a problem with, not both, even though both boxers rub their faces.

 The grumble has not happened with the exception of when the boxers rubbed their faces, so it leads me to believe that there must be something more to it than what I am seeing and understanding.  But since they aren't walked together anymore I can't watch the interaction, but am a little leary of allowing the boxers to rub their faces at all since I am unsure whether there is more to the behavior.

Ideas?