How much is to much?

Disclosure :  I am not a dog trainer, and I have a very easy to train dog.  My first dog trainer taught how to use the dominance down.  She used Piper for her demonstration.  Piper won.  I don't use it.

I don't see how holding a dog down once in a while and having a face to face discussion can be called abusive.  It seems to be a good way to get the dogs attention and let the dog know you are serious.  Old school, but it works.  Dogs are not fragile.

Question: How did the dog respond to being held down and growled at?

 In the best of all possible worlds, we could teach calmly, rationally, effectively, using only rewards.  But we are people, working with dogs that have minds of their own,and in this case with a suicidal dog.   This would seem to be a behavior in need of being extinguished quickly.  Why would aversive conditioning not be  effective in training Maze to not do this?.  Unfortunately, the behavior is self rewarding-chasing moving things, and even the attempts to stop the behavior -being chased and called-, are probably rewarding.

DougB

Question: How did the dog respond to being held down and growled at?

Maze goes limp and relaxes when held down and growled at. 

espencer

I recommend the OP to read this link regarding the 8 rules of punishment, they will give you a better idea on how it works:

http://rewardingbehaviors.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=103&t=3942&p=14815&hilit=steve+white+8+rules#p14815

Nice resource espencer. SW is one of my all time favourite trainers in tracking and scent stuff.

DougB

But we are people, working with dogs that have minds of their own,and in this case with a suicidal dog.

Firstly, the dog is not suicidal. The dog has no concept, clearly, of the dangers involved. The dog is being a dog.

We are people, yes. People who are supposed to have the bigger frontal cortex, and the ability to think things through. We have the ability to think rationally, it's often in our best interests to use it. Like I already said, you might not consider it abusive, but I would have reported you and you in a second if I had have seen you physically pinning a dog down on the ground and growling at it on a public sidewalk.

I have a feeling that Maze is not as relaxed as she may look to be. She may "submit" and go limp, but limp does not in any way means she is relaxed. It is most times quite the opposite. Especially because you have already said that you "scared the *** out of her", I would not think she relaxed in any way in encounter.

DougB

This would seem to be a behavior in need of being extinguished quickly.

But it won't be extinguished quickly. And I can probably bet a paycheck to say that chances are what she did to Maze will not have any effect on her behaviour in the future, and it will not *extinguish* anything when it comes to arousal around traffic. What it might do, though, is to impact the relationship they already have (strained one), and cause the dog to begin to rely less on Kitty as a person to make safe decisions for her, if every once in a while Kitty become violent and physical. Especially when Maze cannot predict, or control it.

DougB

Why would aversive conditioning not be  effective in training Maze to not do this?. 

Maze already has a host of issues - dog aggression, impulse control issues, arousal issues. Aversive conditioning is a poor choice here because of the effect it will have in other contexts. Aversive conditioning rarely (if ever) stays just within the confines of that stimulus. There is fallout that happens with aversive conditioning, and this is not a dog that I would want to be fooling around with that with.

DougB

Unfortunately, the behavior is self rewarding-chasing moving things, and even the attempts to stop the behavior -being chased and called-, are probably rewarding.

But the dog should never be in a situation to be "chased and called". That's the point. It needs to be prevented, completely. Every time this dog rehearses the behaviour, the behaviour will remain strong. I agree that the dog is still receiving some reinforcement for its behaviour, that's why we need to change the picture entirely for this dog. Gaci used to be highly interested in moving vehicles, when she was younger. She now totally ignores them, and we never used any form of aversive conditioning to get there.

So....since aversive conditioning is likely limited in its effectiveness in this case anyhow, may have fallout that spills into other situations, and will likely impact the relationship if performed (and repeated, which it would need to be), and it can be accomplished in non-confrontational ways..........the end doesn't always justify the means. And in a lot of cases the means has a bad effect on the end.

Dogs are not fragile, but this dog is already on a slippery slope. I don't think it's wise to add conflict into it, or what is a few issues may snowball into a whopping amount of issues.

 Maybe relaxed wasn't the right word for it. But she did go limp, the entire episode lasted a few seconds.  From me pulling her from traffic to the growl. I don't want to use aversive conditioning on her. She has shut down on me before (when I didn't know any better) and I don't want that again.

Kim, I really do appreciate your posts.  They make a lot of sense.

Thanks for the link, I'll be sure to check it out when I've got some spare time. 

And after the situation was over and I was sitting next to her, I gave her a pat and apologized. It was more for me then anything. We headed home after that.

I believe I read that you have bought, or ordered, Click to Calm, right? It's a great read, and if you haven't read it already you will find great benefit in it.

If you haven't, I would also highly recommend Control Unleashed as well. It has some fabulous exercises for dogs who are easily aroused, have trouble calming or thinking clearly, and it is an overall wonderful book. The Look At That game, specifically, would be a great asset, but others would help as well.

I know it's not as helpful as genuine hands-on experience, but it's a start.

 I did borrow Click to Calm from Heather and read it a couple of times. It was really good. I haven't been able to find Control Unleashed yet. But I'm still looking for it.

http://www.dogwise.com/ItemDetails.cfm?ID=DTB943

I think that's the only place you can get it from, although I could be totally wrong on that. LOL. But Dogwise is a godsend when it comes to dog books, and they have great service.

 Thanks! Once I start making a better income, I'll be placing a mass order with them. Lol

Kim_MacMillan

Firstly, the dog is not suicida

Poor wording on my part.  I should have said the dog enjoyed an activity that had a high level of danger attached.

Kim_MacMillan

We are people, yes. People who are supposed to have the bigger frontal cortex, and the ability to think things through. We have the ability to think rationally,

I read the paper, watch TV news.  This may need a rethink.

Kim_MacMillan

but I would have reported you and you in a second if I had have seen you physically pinning a dog down on the ground and growling at it on a public sidewalk.

Possibly on grounds of sanity, but I don't think this reaches the level of abusive by MN statutes.  We may have to disagree on this.  I will accept that it looks strange and is ineffective, and inappropriate with this dog.

The rest is well presented, well thought out, and informative.  Thank you.  I think we covered aversive conditioning in about 5 minutes at college, and that was a long time ago.

"I was mad, scared and frustrated.  I may have over reacted but I flipped. I grabbed her by the scruff of the neck and the butt and threw her back on the side walk. I pinned her on her side and growled at her. Needless to say, I scared the living **** outta her." 

Liesje

IMO a correction becomes abuse when it is done out of emotion (anger, fear, frustration...) and/or is done in a way that the dog will not understand and carry over to the next training session or the next time in that situation.  If the dog is unclear what the correction is for or how to avoid it and earn a reward instead, it's not appropriate.

Great post Liesje.

There is no justification for an over-the-top correction done in anger. It reminds me of parents who cloak their own bad behavior towards a child under the guise of "they had it coming" or "it's for their own good". Sorry, this just doesn't fly with me at all and I can't support it.

All this does is cause a dog to fear us and tell the dog we are unstable and unpredictable.

For the record, I'm not part of the "never say no" movement. I do support interruptions before a behavior escalates. I do support saying "uh-uh", "no", "hey"... or whatever in order to communicate to a dog to stop movement in that direction. I support letting a dog know what not to do, as well as letting them know what I do want. I don't have a problem with setting boundaries or giving a tug on the leash or a body block. I am "hands-on" and am personally comfortable with communicating through touch through working with both dogs and horses since I was 12 years old. I even support restraining a dog on it's side in certain circumstances by experienced canine handlers.

What was done here was out of line and needs to be thought out from the heart, not the ego.

You have some self-reflecting and work to do. If you are honest and sincere, you will be able to do it.

Good luck.

 I do use No, Eh eh, or Hey in normal circumstances. I also use body blocks, redirection and a minor tug on the leash.

I am working towards fixing what I caused.  I feel horrible that I used force on her after getting her out of the street. 

I think you are aware and will do fine.

It takes a lot of courage to post what happened between you and your dog on an open dog board!

Hang in there.

I have no problem with being stern with a dog especially for something that is (IMO) black and white because it is a safety issue, but I would rather not correct the dog after-the-fact and use so much emotion.  If my dog is acting up in the middle of the street I have no problem giving them a pop to redirect their attention to me, and shortening the line such that the dog doesn't really have any options even if it doesn't want to come along.  If there's ever a risk of the dog being too overstimulated, there must always be a way to manage the situation so that it's at least safe.  I don't think that is undermining the training or the relationship with the dogs.  When I walk three male dogs, two that are fully grown, things are different than if I'm walking one at a time because I need to guarantee control and safety.  With some issues I find it's just easier for everyone to manage than have to train and re-train and risk going one step forward and two steps back.  For something like crossing the road where the dog has already shown behaviors that cause safety issues for the dog, handler, and other people, I'm not sure I'd even really "work on" it, but just hold the dog by the collar or harness every time.  That's not to say it can't be dealt with slowly and surely and the dog can't ever be trained to do an off leash competition heel across a street, but I try to think of it from the dog's perspective and when I do I feel like a lot of things just don't matter.  A dog like Coke would rather I hold his collar in this type of situation so we can just go across safely and go to the park or wherever we're going than spend weeks or months "training" it.  Coke is a perfect example of a very nice dog that would much rather be appropriately managed than trained, if that makes sense.

 I was gonna sit this one out, but I do have a question and its a sincere one. What was the purpose of the growl made by you?