How much is to much?

IMO?  Yeah, it was way over the top.  That said, I do understand the frustration level, but.  If a child jerked away from you and you reacted that way, pow!  Child abuse.  The "correct" reaction is to buy a child harness so it doesn't happen again.  Far easier said than done.

I don't have any pullers now, but, I still find myself slipping the lead handle over my wrist and then also holding it in my hand.  Way back when Thor was pulling so badly, I bought a longer lead and looped it around my waist then used a carabiner thingee to lock it in place.  Alternately, you can put the lead on YOU before you clip it onto the dog.  Altho, fair warning with this idea....Thor could and did pull me right off my feet and drag me down the street more than once.  But, he's a large, powerful dog.

 Maze has pulled my back out doing that. As well as popped my wrist, cracked my elbow and almost dislocated my shoulder.  At the time of this incident, I had the leash around my wrist and being held in both hands, she was wearing a halti.

There is a deadly history on this one corner. Many people have been hit by cars in the past year. 4 just in the last 6 months. So I also had that fear going through my head at the time.

Do I think you are an abusive owner? Not at all - I don't know you, and I wouldn't jump to assume that at all.

Do I think the behaviour that you performed was abus-ive? Yes, I do. 100%. And to be completely honest, if I had have been a witness to a person scruffing and driving a dog onto its back on a sidewalk, I would be calling Animal Control immediately and filing a report. I don't care if its Joe Blow or the local celebrity, or if it's never happened before. It cannot happen again.

A consequence for any behaviour should not result in avoidance, fear, or pain reactions in your dog - it should be information and nothing more. So to say that you *scared the living *** out of her* is a clear indication to me that it was totally over the top, and have likely made the situation worse, not better.

Any consequence provided from a person should also be well thought-out and planned - not performed out of frustration or anger. You yourself were not thinking clearly, and reacted on pure emotion. That alone to me is a red flag, and makes for bad training, to be honest, but it goes farther than that. As much as it sucks to hear - to change behaviour, you have to check your emotions at the door. When you lose control - your dog will mirror that and will begin to consider that you can't be trusted to make wise choices for her.

You lost control. I realize that it's a dog, but it's not "just a dog" (and I know that you realize that". But like Glenda said, if that had been a child that you "lost control" with, you'd have lost your children on the spot, if you lived here.

This is a totally rhetorical question, but.....If you can't control your own emotions, then how do you expect your dog to control hers?

You are already going through a lot with Maze, with the dog-dog aggression issues, her recent dismissal from therapy group, and it sounds to me like your whole relationship is starting to take a strain. I think it may be time to take a step back and think about things, because I'm sure you've been under a lot of stress because of everything, and that is not condusive to coming up with a solution. I'm confident a solution can be made, but it can't be done without de-fogging the stress that is in your mind right now.

My normal response to a training goof-up would be "Don't beat yourself up over this", but to be honest, I do think it is something you should reflect closely upon and consider.  Because I think there are some serious considerations to be made if you are beginning to become physical with your dog as a reflectino of your own anger and loss of control. If you saw somebody doing what you did, not knowing the reasons - how would you react?

oranges81

I had tried food, prong collars, halti's while walking past cars.. No good.  But I do not feel that my reaction was abuse. Just a very harsh correction

The first thing when I see something like this is that you've tried a little bit of everything and not enough of anything. This is common when frustrated people are looking for a "quicker fix" or go on the quick recommendation of somebody who has not seen the actual behaviour.

But food alone, or any tools do not solve the problem.

The question is - what plan do you have in place to fix and/or manage the problem? Not what tools are you going to use, but is the plan? Tools and food are useless if there is no plan on how to use them. And I have a feeling there is a plan lacking because a prong collar and a halti are on almost completely opposite ends of the spectrum in terms of control.

Every method to change behaviour, or to manage an environment, needs a plan, and one that is consistent and routine, and thought out well ahead of time. Not one that changes based on a week or two of practice, or that you do "on the fly".

In other words, you need to consider things like:
- counterconditioning
- desensitization
- increasing foundation skills (eye contact as emotional anchor, sit/stay, emergency down, etc)
- management

I bolded management because for any appropriate training program, you need to manage the situation for safety and training success. If you are working a counterconditioning program or working on proofing focus around vehicles, you can't then throw Maze into a situation in which at this point you know she will fail. Once again it's bad training, and it will just cause you to get upset with her for something she cannot help.

So, management. Serious management. If you know that the sound of the crosswalk "ding" is a trigger for arousal, can you avoid the signal between training sessions? Go to an area that doesn't have them? Provide exercise inside on stairs, in a hallway, or in the backyard instead of in busy roads?  Drive to a park if necessary to prevent rehearsal?

Preventing rehearsal is 100% necessary for long-term behaviour change. The longer she is able to "practice" going wild at roadways and at the sound of the crosswalk, the stronger her little brain pathways for that behaviour become. To change behaviour, you have to change the pathways in the brain, and you can't do that without preventing her from engaging in these behaviours around roadways. I don't know where you live, or how difficult that is, but it's necessary to change the picture for her and only work in those environments when you are actively re-training.

So you need a plan. A retraining plan, and a management plan. Without them you will never have success in changing her behaviour. She can't change it on her own, she needs your help to do so. And you can't do it without knowing exactly what you are going to do in each situation.

 Kim, I fully admit I lost control. After I sat down on the side walk and calmed down a bit, I regretted immediately my reaction. I don't see this as a training goof up since in a normal training situation, I would never place my hands on her.   I know I shocked a lot of people that day as many stopped to check on Maze and make sure we were ok. A few drivers saw the entire incident.

Yes there is a lot of stress going on, more so right now as I just received an email from my therapy group leader.   So yeah our relationship is taking a strain right now.

 Those beepers are on every cross walk in town. But it's not all cross walks. Just this specific one. Yes I can avoid it until I'm able to train it. You are right about needing a training plan.  Behavior work is out of my league. Lol. I deal with puppies and basic training.

Well, yeah, you NEED to see it as a goof because that total lack of control HAPPENED.

Kim knows this stuff a lot better than I do, but, I totally agree with her that you need a PLAN and you need to avoid the ding.

I know you've got to have a ton of frustration right now and I honestly don't mean this to be unkind, but, if you can't control yourself it's going to be harder to control your dog.

oranges81

Corrections in behavior training has it's place. I feel that if all else has failed then a correction is needed.  But when does correction become abuse

I don't want to get involved in specifc examples, becuase frankly, most owners spend far too much time talking about and trying to prevent or correct behaviour that they don't want, rather than working on behaviours that they want. Corrections always have some fall out, so if you want to use them, then you need to face up to this fact and manage this aspect.

Do i use corrections? Well i never say never but very very rarely. If i use a correction of any kind more than once then i am deluding myself. I should have done it harder and managed the fall out.And that makes you stop very suddenly and think becuase you may not be able to. With my own dogs Sam has not had a physical correction in his life, and Luci once (for a safety issue). I do not use correction collars.I am not going to tell you how i corrected Luci, as IMHO you should only do this if you know exaclty what you are doing, you have very good timing, and know what to do afterwards. That pretty much means having access to a pro trainer, and a good trainer will be like me and not that happy at all with using corrections left right and center

I don't work a whole lot now with pet dog owners becuase i like to work with dogs doing stuff. I hate seeing dogs going back often into an environment where they are doomed to spend the rest of their lives understimulated and over stressed. So i do other stuff.

oranges81

Kim, I fully admit I lost control

That is the first step. Because of your experience in puppies and basic training, it's not surprising to me that you are experiencing *a lot of dog* with the issues that Maze is presenting that feel totally out of your comfort zone.

I realize my bluntness may be taken to heart. While the content of those posts is intended for serious thought, please don't take it to mean you are a bad person. People make mistakes (and I do think this qualifies!), and I can empathize with your situation. On top of that, it sounds to me like you aren't getting much valuable help in person with your issues from local trainers (thinking of the "dog park socialization" recently, which was of course very, very bad advice!), so it's really hard when you feel you aren't getting the help that you need!

Something to share that may or may not be helpful at this time......I may be a trainer, but I have a special needs girl at home who is a difficult dog for the most experienced of folks. We have tackled all sorts of issues, from resource guarding (of a person), inter-bitch aggression (and at one time Shimmer and two other dogs had to suffer injuries in early days due to errors on human behalf), stranger fears, impulse control problems, and a high predatory drive. To top it all off she stresses low and high (most dogs stress more one way than another, not both), which means in some situations she would over-react, and in others she would shut down.  To see her walking down the road or in an agility trial, or in photos, you would never know the issues she has overcome. She has not aggressed in several years, does not overreact in public places, and no longer resource guards me from Shimmer nor does she react to stress by shutting down or over-reacting anymore. But she's still prey-driven, she still relies on me to "keep her safe", she can still be impulsive (but she has ways to cope and can easily be redirected and reminded).

The point is - some things can be easily trained away, but some things are what makes that dog who she is. I can't "make" Gaci genetically less impulsive. I can't "make" her become a social butterfly. I can't "make" her love other dogs. I can't "delete" her prey drive (nor would I want to!) Training doesn't fix those kinds of things, and some things cannot be totally eliminated. What makes life with her successful is the combination of training with management to set her up for success.

She has not aggressed towards a female she lives with in several years. But she still gets anxious at some encounters, and if I let certain routines slip, then I'm sure some of her own behaviour will slip as well. That's management. She doesn't aggress to strange dogs walking down the street, but I don't let strange dogs approach her and sniff her. She doesn't want that, and it would set her up to fail. That's management. When I take all three dogs out together in public, she often wears her Gentle Leader. Management - she never needs it when we are working one-on-one, but it gives her an understanding and gives me control in situations where I may have to share my attention on several dogs.

With dogs like Gaci, and like Maze (and many, many dogs!), management becomes a necessary part of life. Training is necessary, but appropriate management is as well. You can't retrain without using proper management. Even with training, there are certain areas of management that always remain in place - they are lifestyle changes on behalf of you and your dog.

The question is - are you prepared to make those lifestyle changes to set your dog up for success, to reduce stress for both of you, and to begin teaching her things - at her pace, not yours! - and start to rebuild the relationship that is starting to spiral downward? In order to do so, you need to accept who she is, work at her pace, and help her to succeed by not placing her into situations in which she cannot cope.  If you are, there are lots of us here (me included) who are more than willing to help you along the way. We may even be able to help you find an appropriate trainer in your area since hands-on work is the best way to go. But something's gotta give at some point, because the only other alternative is to consider whether or not you are able to help this girl in the way that she needs to be helped. I get the feeling you want to do the right thing, but it's always a consideration as to whether or not you are able to do that and give her what she needs.

 I would say your reaction was overkill.  Personally, I don't have any problem with the initial neck/butt scruffing and hauling her back.  There is a certain category where lives are at stake where I have no problem using physical force.  Just like I would have no qualms about jerking a child back by their arm if they started to bolt into the street.  That is not a place to play around.  Now forcing her to the ground after the fact on the sidewalk and growling, yah that would fall under overkill for me.

Personally the first thing I would probably work on is killing some of the initial build up to the excitement.  Go to the street crossing with no intentions of crossing.  If you get closer and see her getting excited turn around and start walking back, not as a punishment but to start and desensitize the build up.  Turn back toward the street than back work your way until you get to the point where she looses interest because darn, her silly human can't seem to decide where she wants to walk. 

Similarly I would take the edge out of the crossing buzzer by making it so hearing the noise doesn't mean you are actually even going to cross.  That noise might mean turn around again.

IMO a correction becomes abuse when it is done out of emotion (anger, fear, frustration...) and/or is done in a way that the dog will not understand and carry over to the next training session or the next time in that situation.  If the dog is unclear what the correction is for or how to avoid it and earn a reward instead, it's not appropriate.

Kim_MacMillan

but I have a special needs girl at home who is a difficult dog for the most experienced of folks. We have tackled all sorts of issues, from resource guarding (of a person), inter-bitch aggression (and at one time Shimmer and two other dogs had to suffer injuries in early days due to errors on human behalf), stranger fears, impulse control problems, and a high predatory drive. To top it all off she stresses low and high (most dogs stress more one way than another, not both), which means in some situations she would over-react, and in others she would shut down.  To see her walking down the road or in an agility trial, or in photos, you would never know the issues she has overcome. She has not aggressed in several years, does not overreact in public places, and no longer resource guards me from Shimmer nor does she react to stress by shutting down or over-reacting anymore. But she's still prey-driven, she still relies on me to "keep her safe", she can still be impulsive (but she has ways to cope and can easily be redirected and reminded).

The point is - some things can be easily trained away, but some things are what makes that dog who she is. I can't "make" Gaci genetically less impulsive. I can't "make" her become a social butterfly. I can't "make" her love other dogs. I can't "delete" her prey drive (nor would I want to!) Training doesn't fix those kinds of things, and some things cannot be totally eliminated. What makes life with her successful is the combination of training with management to set her up for success.

I am strictly an amateur, but to a lesser extent have had the same issues. My older girl, luci (the one with UD) used to shut down badly with noise issues. She is quite sharp around dogs that don't have good body language. She is acutely acutely aware of prey and if given the chance and a 5M head start is off and gone. I love her to bits, and we trained together at her pace. Not my pace, her pace. I learned to relax. It took a long while to get the noise issues, a bit longer to gentle up my body langage so she didn't freak with me sometimes.

My younger boy well, poor little sod when i got him he didn't listen to humans much, poohed and peed everywhere except outside, jumped and nipped my ears, so energetic he didn't have any idea what to do... Wasn't great with other bigger dogs and wouldn't back down. High prey drive. Worried about the enviroment and proximity of humans.

Well, he is a well behaved young dog now, and..... i have never corrected him. He has a TD title. I have been very relaxed with him, got him involved with things such as agility and tracking (see his TD title) and also obedience. I have just constantly given him reason to trust me and pay attention to me and he does. He is so achingly eagerly obedient that he touches me in ways that i never thought possible. WOuld i take another dog like him? No . Even though he is my third dog in a lifetime, it was very tough going . That is another belief. All my dogs are wonderful. All my dogs are the best. They are all capable of great things and i truely believe it. My job is to help them be that great dog.

 Kim, I value your bluntness! Lol.  Yes I am lacking in help around here so I do what I can with what I've got. Hopefully the move into the city will open up some doors behavior wise.

I think some of my problem is realizing what behaviors are Maze and what aren't. She'll never be a dog to approach on the street by a stranger and that's fine by me. I just want her to be able to walk past another dog with no issues, stop dancing and playing the street. Lol

Yes the pin and growl was overkill (I think I growled No at her. not sure). We've come so far with that dang noise that I had hoped we were ok. But I pushed her to fast and it fell apart. 

Liesje

IMO a correction becomes abuse when it is done out of emotion (anger, fear, frustration...) and/or is done in a way that the dog will not understand and carry over to the next training session or the next time in that situation.  If the dog is unclear what the correction is for or how to avoid it and earn a reward instead, it's not appropriate.

I agree with this

Also we can not use a specific "chart" to determine when is too much and when is not. I only touched my Schanuzer on her shoulder back in the day once for jumping and she totally ran away from me. If i do the same with my Malamute today he will not pay attention to me whatsoever and will ignore me.

I recommend the OP to read this link regarding the 8 rules of punishment, they will give you a better idea on how it works:

http://rewardingbehaviors.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=103&t=3942&p=14815&hilit=steve+white+8+rules#p14815