I need help-Lilith bit my son in the face

if I recall this puppy was a handful right out of the gate. Vaccinations have NOTHING to do with it. Did your breeder temperament test this litter and if so where was she at? I seem to recall pretty clearly that this pup has been bossy and even growly since day 1?

IMO she is a very bossy girl who wants her way and isn't above using intimidation do get it. She also seems to think very highly of herself and her place in your home. It is not a BAD temperament necessarily. I know someone that does a lot of sports and such would probably find it stimulating. But me personally, I would not want to live with it.

I think right now, you need to be talking with your BREEDER about this because they know their lines best and these particular parents of this puppy best. What do they say/have they been saying about this behavior since you brought your puppy home? I assume they know you had a little one at home? Have any other littermates been like this? Did either parent go thru a stage like this? Have you met either parent and do you know anyone in the Toller community that does and could give you some input?

Bear in mind I am coming at this both as a mother and as a breeder. Temperament is not set in stone no...but a pup being bossy at 8-12 weeks of age is IMO the start of a trend and owners should be sure that is what they want.

 Well, if the dog was laying down then she probably bit because she felt threatened - or just didn't want to be bothered - or didn't want her space to be invaded - or was caught off guard.

Kids and dogs can be touchy because kids are so unpredictable and fast. Sometimes that puts dogs on guard and they will correct a kid if they feel that they have to.

Has your trainer been to your house to observe? I think that should be your first step. 

What is Lilith having surgery for?

Have you seen a vet behaviorist? A certified one? They are hard to find and very expensive BUT they can be worth their weight in gold imo.

Jewlieee

Well, if the dog was laying down then she probably bit because she felt threatened - or just didn't want to be bothered - or didn't want her space to be invaded - or was caught off guard

I'd agree, but many dogs would not react this way really, especially young dogs, they'd need to work up to it, or they'd just get up and leave?

I find this a bit worrisome simply because of the other things in conjunction. This is probably a dog that will require a lifetime of management and constant proofing and such. I know that Kindred said the breed as a whole is not supposed to have a hair trigger..so it begs the question of what might be up with this particular pup...

Hormones can certainly factor in sure...but I think this pup is a bit young for that? Typically that obnoxious teenager behavior is more a 10-12 months old thru age 3 thing, at least here. Or is Lillith older than I am thinking? hmmm...

Thanks for the responses. Lilith is bossy, but she was easy handled and gentle for the most part, incredibly whiny since day one though. We have so many outlets for Lilith including Rally-O and practicing agility every week at dog club and then we did classes and have interactive toys. I don't want this to stay this way, it can't stay this way. I have talked to the breeder and she has stated there was no aggression in the parents or any other Toller. I am going to write her again right after this and tell her about this incident. She doesn't do an actual test for the puppies, just watches the way they act and Lilith she said has always been the sweetest, but not quite as out-going as the other pups. She is a social butterfly now, but just so bossy now. And yes she did know that I had two young kids, she said the most I'd have to worry about is Lilith being a puppy and knocking them over and that the teething stage could be hard. But nothing to worry about when it came to aggression. No, I never met the parents in person. No I never asked if the parents went through this stage as a teen, I just asked in general. I will ask as soon as I'm done typing this. I hope Devon, Dances owner sees this and can help.

Jewliee- the only thing is we were sitting there petting her for a few minutes and then I kissed her and he asked after I just kissed her and that happened. My kids are really good with dogs, I taught them  how to treat dogs properly and my youngest even helps with training. Its been like that since day one, so I don't think she was all the sudden caught off guard. No my trainer hasn't been here to observe yet, we were setting things up for after the surgeries. Liliths surgery is on the 24th to be spayed. I trust my trainer as she has dealt with aggressive dogs before, including one of her own. But I did also try to find a behaviorist and I can't find a single one.

rwbeagles

Jewlieee

Well, if the dog was laying down then she probably bit because she felt threatened - or just didn't want to be bothered - or didn't want her space to be invaded - or was caught off guard

 

I'd agree, but many dogs would not react this way really, especially young dogs, they'd need to work up to it, or they'd just get up and leave?

I find this a bit worrisome simply because of the other things in conjunction. This is probably a dog that will require a lifetime of management and constant proofing and such. I know that Kindred said the breed as a whole is not supposed to have a hair trigger..so it begs the question of what might be up with this particular pup...

Hormones can certainly factor in sure...but I think this pup is a bit young for that? Typically that obnoxious teenager behavior is more a 10-12 months old thru age 3 thing, at least here. Or is Lillith older than I am thinking? hmmm...

 Sorry posted at the same time as you. Lilith will be 6 months old on the 28th. But I read small breeds start around this age, large breeds 9-10 months, but Lilith is a medium breed so not sure when they start that. And I am worried for the same reasons you are. I just don't know whats wrong with Lilith. Should I have the vet do a full physical and blood panel? I know Tollers are prone to thyroid issues, could that maybe be causing it?

The reason I asked about a stage the parents went thru because then you can at least know if it ENDS, you know? :) Plenty of pups do a fear stage thing, usually what 6-8 months of age?

From what you describe it doesn't seem fear based as much as "you're not on the list" lol. Was she stiff at all prior? tense or anything? does she gravitate to him in general or pretty much avoids him? Sometimes it's so hard to figure these things out, I am so sorry. As a Mom it's so hard when you just want to get medieval because your child is scared or hurt or worse. You are doing a great job trying to figure this out.

How does she react to children his size, outside of the home? Just trying to find some common denominatior...

Ah okay, I did read about the fear stage starting around this time. I'm in the midst of writing her breeder, but wanted to respond to you quickly.

There was no sniff or anything. She seemed relaxed. There was no whale eyes, noticeable tenseness or anything obvious, to me anyway. Generally Lilith avoids Nevyn, I'm not sure why, she also only growled at Nevyn at night, never Aistlinn when she came in. She is great with Aistlinn who is only 2.5yrs old, but then again Aistlinn has a no BS attitude, trains Lilith with me and is not afraid of her like Nevyn is. Around my nieces who are 4, 4.5, 8 she does fine with them. She can get a little jumpy and hyper when the girls all start screaming, but I just tether her or gate her when the kids get like that. Thanks Gina, thats is exactly how I felt. I controlled myself, but I wanted to yell or swat her on the butt I was so upset. I just want to get down to the bottom of this.

With children outside the house she is all wags and kisses, Like I was telling Dances owner one day, Lilith is a social butterfly and not reserved with anyone person or dog.

Called the vet and made her an appointment Wednesday at 2pm for thyroid panel. I'll be recovering from my darn wisdom teeth surgery that day so my husband said he will take her. He wants to wait and see if it gets better after her spay, but knowing that Tollers are very prone to thyroid issues I want to eliminate it as a possibility. I also just finished writing her breeder and told her to call me.

I'm going to go take Lilith for a long walk. She didn't want to get out of her crate and was cowering, I'm trying to keep my emotions in check, but I think she sees that I'm upset. Hopefully a long walk will be good for both of us right now.

Hey, I'd be emotional too in your shoes but you've got bigger things to deal with.  As for Lilith and her biting, she did inhibit her bite which is a good thing.  She obviously is not comfortable around your son.  I don't recall if you said but is your trainer coming to the house to observe?   That would be very helpful.  Hang in there.  I think you can get through this unless Lilith is just wired wrong but it sounds like she's had too much freedom at too young an age.  

Kindredspirits, I think you're very smart to get the thyroid testing done--it will help you rule in or rule out a medical issue. I don't know if it's possible to get a sample shipped from Canada to Dr. Dodds, but if you can, it would be well worth it. She does the most comprehensive thyroid testing you can get, and many of us on the IMHA thread have been helped tremendously by her. She is at Hemopet. If you want the web site address with information about shipping a blood sample, just let me know.

Back to the issue at hand, glad you are getting a thyroid panel done. I'm not usually one to jump to the vets but since the dog has a history its worth checking out.

I do not believe that spaying her is going to change anything.

Tomorrow I will see if I can find that list of certified vet behaviorists and link it to you. Usually you have to drive a ways to find one. I drive an hour to mine.

I'm very concerned that your dog actually made skin contact with you son. She could have decided to air snap, growl or any other number of things instead. Dogs don't mean to air snap and make contact on accident. That was deliberate on her part.

What you said about her avoiding him says a lot to me. For some reason your son stresses her out. My nephew stresses abbie out and she used to use all of her avoidance skills to get away from him. She would hide near me and even turn her back to him and stick her head towards the wall. They are buddies now but the avoidance was something I was keenly aware of. If her pushed her too far, she would probably bite to make him go away. It was up to me to make sure he stayed away from her.

You really don't have that option though. You all live in the same house. So, I am worried that this may happen again :(

Let us know how the thyroid panel comes out and what the trainer says.