does clicker training have drawbacks?

My dogs understand that the click, just like the word yes! Means "you did that right! Come get a reward."

A hand signal directs my dog to do something but doesn't tell them they did it right. that's where the yes word or the click comes in. Just like a body signal from me might say, jump up on my back. The yes that follows after the dog did it says good job, that's what I wanted.

The click is not a command, so the dog should not be responding to a sound.  The click is a "mark" that follows your command or hand signal. So, if you are training a dog to focus, you would not click unless/until the dog turn his focus to you.

I've used clicker training (both WITH a clicker and with a marker word so I can always use either) on all of my dogs and no, I have not had a single drawback.  I have used a clicker to train everything from a 7 week old puppy learning the basic sit and down, to training a very reactive dog to relax in the presence of another dog (and this reactive dog was initially afraid of the click sound), to training a competition dog a fully freeshaped perfect formal retrieve.

There are limitations - I primarily train Schutzhund and there are many things that simply cannot be "trained" with clicker training or marker based training (mostly in the protection phase).

Liesje

There are limitations - I primarily train Schutzhund and there are many things that simply cannot be "trained" with clicker training or marker based training (mostly in the protection phase).

I found it quite useful in the Schutz.  I used it in all phases, from the targeting of the blinds, to the guard, and finally to get calm bite with a very mouthy dirty biter. Trying to transition the dogs into Ring so I  am using it to target bites on different parts of the body.

Thanks Jewlie, if it will increase his reaction time I will try it

Thanks chuffy, I have been away from training for awhile and I am rusty, trying to get my hand back in

Thanks Liesje, If you recommend it, it must be OK

True I have use marker-based training (not with a clicker, but same concept) for some of the secondary obedience/control in the protection phase.  I used some marker-based freeshaping to train the dog to run blinds as an obedience exercise for a ball reward.  I introduced the "out" with toys as well, and a lot of the obedience used in the protection phase like the heeling, sit, down, etc. can easily be clicker trained.  But I do not believe you can use this form of training when transitioning the drives, which is the point of the phase.  You cannot clicker train a dog to activate in prey or defense, transition to fight, and back out.  That is based on the genetics of the dog and how the dog is being worked by the helper.  The handler tends to just get in the way, if anything.

 Hi

I would pretty much agree with  most of what you have written

Liesje

The click is not a command, so the dog should not be responding to a sound.  The click is a "mark" that follows your command or hand signal. So, if you are training a dog to focus, you would not click unless/until the dog turn his focus to you.

I've used clicker training (both WITH a clicker and with a marker word so I can always use either) on all of my dogs and no, I have not had a single drawback.  I have used a clicker to train everything from a 7 week old puppy learning the basic sit and down, to training a very reactive dog to relax in the presence of another dog (and this reactive dog was initially afraid of the click sound), to training a competition dog a fully freeshaped perfect formal retrieve.

There are limitations - I primarily train Schutzhund and there are many things that simply cannot be "trained" with clicker training or marker based training (mostly in the protection phase).

But of course my dogs are so fantastically quick that i have no hope of using a verbal marker  (Hoping like hell that it translates to US humour)...

I don't do Schutzhund, but in tracking i only do secondaries with the clicker (object indication). It is easy to get operant behaviour and reward for it in tracking without a clicker.

I don't use the clicker a whole lot in agility, ( i do for the basic behaviours)  because i try to teach my dogs in drive so that is what i want. They are too fast to click. An example is weave poles. I would set up a 4 pole exercise and frankly i have no hope of clicking if something goes wrong. I am just not that fast. But becuase the exercise is contained somewhat, and they have a basc understanding of what is required, they sure do sort it out!!!  I can also easily set up the scenarios so that i am getting operant behaviour. The intensity of mental effort required to handle either of my dogs in agility is unreal.. for me.

In SAR (which i am just starting) the clicker gets used a hell of a lot, but there you go..

A simple way to uderstand the clicker is that it promotes operant behaviors, or self driving behaviours. The dog gets to believe that it is driving the outcome. There are a few ways of doing this. Look up doggy Zen on the web, and try it out on your dog. Just shut up and let your dog sort out the outcome. It is amazing how little our dogs need us and how confusing we are at this stage of learning. I find that many obedience people with the best of intentions jsut can't let their dogs make mistakes or do things that aren't in the book. Yet everytime , i can guarantee by letting the dog learn hi/her way they get there quicker.

I will give you an example. I am teaching my younger dog SD. He is quite "aware" of his environment shall we say. So we are doing it in many different places I lay the sd articles out, and he will do one or two. At some point he may well wander of and have a look at a bush or something and then come back.Now because the rewards are pretty heavy, the incidence of this behaviour ( Without a word being said by me) is diminishing rapidly, and the correct article indication is increasing rapidly. The rewards are in his control

Here is the value of the clicker, and you can use it train audibles and visuals. Visuals are great because dogs see movements better than they speak the Queen's English. You can say sit 4 times and it will sound four different ways, especially the last word. Men tend to descend on pitch at the end of a phrase or sentence. Women will often maintain pitch or ascend, at the end. Dogs hear sound and each one can mean something different. Makes me think all dogs are chinese, since Mandarin is a tonal language . Anyway, the sound of a clicker never changes. And once linked to reward, it equals reward imminent. It is not a crutch. If you can say "good boy" the exact same way every time, by all means, do it. But I am here to tell you that the voice changes, from day to day, hour to hour. As opposed to the clicker, which never changes. And you don't have to use the clicker forever. I think I used mine for less than a year. Because it is so effective. So, the commands are obeyed, long after the the clicker is not used any more, long into the differential reward sequence, until it is such a habit, it seems "generalized."

You can still use corrections, just don't use them at the same time as the clicker. That is, if the dog does wrong, don't click and then correct. Correct and then request a behavior that can be rewarded. When the desired behavior happens, click that good behavior and reward it. This will have the effect of the dog teaching himself that listening to you always is rewarding. Only reward follows the clicker. When using the clicker, it is always followed by a reward. Don't use the clicker and then not give a reward. When not using the clicker, then differential rewarding is okay. And is stronger. It's like a slot machine or scratch off lotto. Winning once in a while reinforces more strongly than constant small rewards. Otherwise, Winstar and Choctaw  casinos would go out of business.

So, it's perfectly fine to link visuals and "goodboy" to the sound of the clicker as use of the clicker fades, which actually happens as quickly as you can manage.

Here's why the clicker works. Dogs, like humans, or most any creature, avoid punishment and seek reward. Period, paragraph, new book. If it wasn't that way, then corrections wouldn't work. "Good boy" wouldn't work. I realize that will offend some people's religions, wolf fantasies, or even their own sense of machismo. Sorry about that bad luck. It is not effeminate or macho to use or not use the clicker. The clicker is simply a tool. For deaf dogs, one can use hand signals or a flashlight. Do some people put their own human philosophy into it? Sure, just as some put their own wolf fantasy into corrections. Neither detracts from the scientific validity of clicker training.

And different dogs have different rewards. For mine, it is food rewards, especially food I have cooked. For other dogs, it is chasing a frisbee. For another, it is "good boy" and a rub on the head. For my brother-in-law, his dog's greatest reward is to herd and cut the ball like it was a sheep and then hold the ball "sheep" until you come over do whatever it is that a shepherd does with sheep. Moreso than treats.

And different dog jobs require different variations. K-9's are trained with tug. For one reason, a K-9 focused on work cannot be thrown off by a suspect lobbing treats. For herding dogs, the training is too fast and removed from food to be able to food treat. Hence "pressure" or guiding the available directions of travel work better. Though clicker training can and has been used in these circumstances, as well, with measurable success. My dog can chase after the cat and I can call him off with the word "off" and he will disengage in mid-stride, even mid-launch. Because I used the clicker and treats to train that command. I don't even use the clicker anymore and I don't always have treats on me. But what is a universal law in our universe is that listening to me is always rewarding.

So, disregard all the extemporaneous political and emotional baggage and see the clicker as a tool to achieve a focused attention on you. A clicker is like payday Friday. Why is no one ever late on payday Friday? Or even if late, they still manage to show up sometime?

Of course, someone will mention the person who didn't show up on payday while conveniently neglecting to mention that the person was incapacitated by illness, injury, jail, or death. It's the exception that proves the rule.

 Hi

You tell it like it is , 

ron2

Here is the value of the clicker, and you can use it train audibles and visuals. Visuals are great because dogs see movements better than they speak the Queen's English. You can say sit 4 times and it will sound four different ways, especially the last word. Men tend to descend on pitch at the end of a phrase or sentence. Women will often maintain pitch or ascend, at the end. Dogs hear sound and each one can mean something different. Makes me think all dogs are chinese, since Mandarin is a tonal language . Anyway, the sound of a clicker never changes. And once linked to reward, it equals reward imminent. It is not a crutch. If you can say "good boy" the exact same way every time, by all means, do it. But I am here to tell you that the voice changes, from day to day, hour to hour. As opposed to the clicker, which never changes. And you don't have to use the clicker forever. I think I used mine for less than a year. Because it is so effective. So, the commands are obeyed, long after the the clicker is not used any more, long into the differential reward sequence, until it is such a habit, it seems "generalized."

I use clickers to teach new stuff, to fix stuff that i have stuffed up and for classical condtioning with fear based behaviours. With my older dog, she is learning agility and some new obedience exercises,Sam well he is learning to keep his head screwd on. Haven't sorted out the reward criterea for that!!

I don't know too many top triallists that wouldn't use a marker or a clicker, but there is always an exception.

One huge advantage of a clicker with a real chow hound like my old Lab was that the food could be kept away from the action. My old boy couldn't focus at all if food was within a foot of his nose. The clicker was an absolute life saver for both of us

poodleOwned

I don't know too many top triallists that wouldn't use a marker or a clicker, but there is always an exception.

I agree.  The only ones I know that won't use a clicker generally do use marker training in some capacity and are often people that want to train a behavior faster and then do what the call "polishing" (and what I call "fixing what wasn't communicated correctly in the first place";) later on.  This is what I see a lot in Schutzhund training.  For example I have and will *always* freeshape with a clicker the entire formal retrieve.  It takes several months to do this but IMO the results are fabulous, a dog that clearly understands *every* step in the behavior chain.  There is nothing to polish/fix because I would never have moved on if the dog was not doing one piece of it correctly (when that happens I see that as a failure on my part for not setting up success).  Meanwhile my trainer who helps train/mentor ME does a formal retrieve that is a combination of a forced retrieve and drive building for a dumbbell and will have a dog doing a passable retrieve in a matter of 3 weeks, but often the dog is not consistent, is never perfect, and has some issues here or there that need to be cleaned up.  It's not that I think the clicker is the ONLY way to do it, I just think it's the BEST way to do it because it makes the most sense to the DOG.  There are many, many Schutzhund people who will still insist that the only way to ensure a reliable, correct formal retrieve is to introduce some amount of pressure/force.  Yet, one of the most highly regarded Schutzhund trainer/competitor/breeder can take out her high level dog, have a helper stimming the dog for bitework wearing a sleeve standing behind the handler, and the dog will do a perfect retrieve before being released to bite as a reward.  I chalk this up to experience/comfort level.  I'll always freeshape a retrieve with no "hardware" on the dog whatsoever, and many will always do a forced retrieve, and both of us might earn full points in competition.  With something as valuable as a retrieve (40 out of 100 total points in the obedience phase) I'll fall back on the training style where I've had the most experience and success, and that is freeshaping with a marker. 

Liesje

For example I have and will *always* freeshape with a clicker the entire formal retrieve.  It takes several months to do this but IMO the results are fabulous, a dog that clearly understands *every* step in the behavior chain.  There is nothing to polish/fix because I would never have moved on if the dog was not doing one piece of it correctly (when that happens I see that as a failure on my part for not setting up success). 

I always freeshape retrieves now, and even more importantly for gun dog breeds. They have such soft mouths that they have to learn a whole new really hard thing for them which is to hold something with pressure. Capturing that and extending it takes a heap of time. Getting them to go out and bring it back takes no time at all. With my poodles i can't guess how long it takes, i never really take any notice! I even free shape SD. I want to see a solid indicate before they bring the article back to me.

Some time ago, i was somewhat offended by someone who suggested that force retrieving was the only way to get a reliable retrieve. I have always been prepared to put my mouth where my money is, and turned up at the  seminar with my then 15 month old poodle. She did 3 retrieves on the flat and a couple over the high jump, had slighly crooked finishes but that was that. She did this in front of a pretty noisy crowd.

 His dog did one, and then stood out of ear pinch range. Still a fortnight later we had "force retrieving was the only way to get a relaible retrieve."!

I can't get some of these humans!!!

Another reason I love clicker training is that it is great training for the handler when it comes to timing a marker and reward delivery (and also timing release words, bridge words, commands, NRMs).  That is something that can be carried over into many other forms of training, even when using corrections.  I was at a training seminar today (yes my club hosts a training seminar the day after Christmas!) and this was one thing that truly set apart the good handlers/trainers from those that were really struggling.  It was not what methods were being used or whether the dog itself was a good or bad dog but how well the handler was getting through to their dog.  When people ask me how I train I don't really go into detail about tools and methods but always bring up how much important I place on the correct timing regardless of WHAT it is you use.  We are limited in how we can communicate to a dog and manipulate it to do what we want.  If the timing is poor then really none of the tools in the toolbox are going to help.  Also no handler is perfect; this is something that can always be developed and improved as a handler, regardless of what dog you are training and what you're trying to get it to do.