Feeding frenzy and annoyances questions.

The dynamics are always different. In this house, Erik and Kivi eat one in and one out because Erik is pushy and I don't want to stand around making sure he doesn't drive Kivi off his meal. Kivi would rather not get into an argument about food. Kivi can therefore be fed with any other dog that shares his priorities. When he goes to stay with my parents he gets fed with another dog and they very politely wait until each other is finished and then swap bowls. With Erik it just makes sense not to bother. He is damn fast. Just a couple of weeks ago Kivi dropped a Comfortis tablet and Erik had swallowed it in about 1.5 seconds. Normally they get medicated in separate rooms for that very reason! As for the meal time craziness, Erik was like that, too. We did the dish it out and leave it on the counter and walk away thing. Thank goodness we did! It took Erik an hour to calm down each time we did it for the first few days, but in about a week the mealtime craziness had vanished and it has never resurfaced. He still gets very excited and the other half likes to tease him a bit to get him really riled before a meal (we have had words, but hey, they are his dogs as well), but still Erik shows beautiful restraint while we are preparing and while he is not what I'd call calm, his behaviour is what I would call perfectly acceptable. He sits and waits quietly. Good boy.

While I would never tell anyone what they should and shouldn't do, as I do agree every dynamic is different, and every situation requires different actions depending on the dogs' and the owner's level of experience and skill, and prior learning, however I too will say that I have three terriers (two very high-drive and intense), who all eat together in the same room and have learned to leave each other be when they are finished eating. They all have a sit/stay while I place their dishes, are released to eat at the same time, and then are expected to leave the room when they are finished (or if we are in the room too, where they want to hang out to give them space).

My guys eat their all-raw meals, like beef ribs and pork hocks, in the same room, and will sometimes even choose to sit side-by-side to do so. Zipper will occasionally guard slightly from Gaci, who sometimes likes to *share*, but she responds appropriately and walks away. Raw food is about the highest value thing to these guys, and they still have good manners about it. It's all about how they were raised, what expectations there are, and how value is assigned to objects. They learned early on that there is more than enough and that guarding isn't necessary, and my next dog will be raised the same way.

I would never say that *everyone should do it this way*, as I have many clients who separate their dogs out of necessity, and it is not just the owner "being lazy". But it's just to point out that you can have high-energy, intense dogs that can learn to communicate over resources non-aggressively. It takes work, but often it can be accomplished without too much hassle if you don't have at-risk dogs (dogs with prior fight history or food aggression).

I have another question please, am I doing this right?

Arlo, the SPAZOID dog throwing everyone into a tizzy has recently, out of frustration of me "reading the mail", let himself outside through the dog door. I have been jumping up and closing the dog door on him, then putting the other dogs in a sit before opening the whole door (not dog door flap) and letting them out. My question is, will that just teach Arlo to "push me into feeding them" by running outside since I've done this twice now? I like him going out because he stops pacing around here.

Another question: When bringing them in, I have been physically blocking the door and only letting one dog in at a time, by name. This has stopped the gang-busting rushing down the stairs "rawr rawr" verbalizing and racing to their dishes situation. A HUGE IMPROVEMENT.

My questions: 1)Is it an unreasonable expectation for them to learn their names?
2) Should I always do the same dog in the same order?
3) Arlo is BOLTING with every dog name and I am having to grab for him as he even pushes past my physical blocking. I've used a Chuck-it as a visible blocking, my own legs (I am petite) and have tried shutting the door quickly between each dog only to accidently catch a nose or paw. (his, every time, 'cause he is the only one bolting) what do I do for that? Just keep reinforcing its not his turn?
4) Two of the dogs Baby and Daisy have similar sounding names, what do I do for this? They frequently mix each other up. Thus far I have allowed Daisy first because I can block Baby easier than I can Daisy. (Baby is a small Lhasa who hangs back in the yard waiting)

Ok a million questions, sorry, I just wanted to make sure I'm doing this fairly for them. Thank you for any input. If I'm totally screwing this up just tell me.

 Are you saying they don't know their own names? If so, to me thats weird, JMO though. Anywhoo it is not an unreasonable expectation to expect them to know their own names.

They are all responding when I am trying to call each of them, select just one of them. So I don't know if they actually know their own names or are just responding to my voice and inflections. Daisy and Baby are definitely both responding, I'm concerned their names are too similar sounding. Arlo and Daisy are "renamed" as they are rescues so I wonder if they need more time to learn their new names. But basically no matter who I specifically call they don't respond individually, they ALL come rushing, they ALL sit, its as if they don't really know their names. Which I didn't realize until now while I'm trying to call them in one-by-one.

Thank you for the reply, I was concerned I was expecting them to be all perfect by waiting their turn and only the specific dog coming in. Would it be best to always invite them in ORDER? The same order every time?

I think its good for them to know their names. My boys know their names well and even Grim is waiting his turn for treats, food or toys until I say his name and direct attention to him. If we are in a field or in the home when I call "Proof" then that's who I have in front of me but if the others are curiouse they will get in seeing distance to see what I wanted Proof for. Since you already have a group of dogs I'm not sure the best technique to teach them because mine all knew their names reliably before I added another dog. I never did any special training, they just picked up on who is who lol

Here's the method I use, it's especially useful for dogs who may have had a different name.

http://dogtime.com/name-recognition-6-plus-center.html

 

proofpup

My boys are very drivey, well Kuniva more than Proof but Proof still is drivey. They have a TON of prey drive and are used for pest removal. They have participated in fly ball, agility and do obediance very well. They all eat together and I didnt have to be harsh on them or do anything to make them less animated while we are out working or simply going threw some obediance runs.

Not saying you are wrong, since ive only worked with working dogs beside Bug maybe different types of work can be ruined from this? If you will, explain to me what you mean and have you seen this occur?

I think there is an element of breed and line issues here. The line that i am using is very dominant in the show ring becuase they show very "up", but the down side is that they don't have a lot of fear and don't often understand how to back off. Sam and Luci are fine and very social together, but can really fight over resources.

Luci will have a crack at nearly any other poodle bitch she comes across, and Sam needs watching all the time with any dogs under 20kgs. I never allow it to happen at all. End of story.

My experience is that you get what you reward for, If you tend to want a quite life and you reward a lot for settling,and calm behaviour and focus on it, then it is no suprise if that is what you get. My preference is to be very clear cut when rewards are available for working, and let the dog sort the rest out for itself. Most are wise enough to chill. My experience is that often (not always!!) an accent on the need to chill is a breed or dog mismatch.My poodles are too stuffed to be bothered to need chilling . You hardly ever get working dogs that have a good days work needing to be told to chill out.

Where i find an over emphasis on rewarding calm behaviour leaking out of context is in shaping other behaviour and i would love to actually do an experiment on this on default behaviors under stresss. So where you may prefer a dog to keep trying , you get a dog that gives up or chills out.

One of the big issues that we have here is the length of our heeling exercises. It includes the figure 8 at most grades and at least two sits drops and stands at every speed. It lasts at least 2 minutes and we work in a ring about 48 yards by 16 yards. Animation over this length of time is not a given at all. When we do US style heeling patterns it seems like Rally O to us!!!

 

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poodleOwned

Where i find an over emphasis on rewarding calm behaviour leaking out of context is in shaping other behaviour and i would love to actually do an experiment on this on default behaviors under stresss. So where you may prefer a dog to keep trying , you get a dog that gives up or chills out.

 

OMG!!!! I never, ever, not even once, thought of this. I have a nearly 3 year old dog who I've always rewarded for going to her mat. She can lay on her mat, anywhere, and relax. When I try to freeshape her, she lays down, and relaxes. How do I get her around that?

jennie_c_d

OMG!!!! I never, ever, not even once, thought of this. I have a nearly 3 year old dog who I've always rewarded for going to her mat. She can lay on her mat, anywhere, and relax. When I try to freeshape her, she lays down, and relaxes. How do I get her around that?

 

 

Umm... i hate to tell you this but you have a LONG LONG road to climb if you dog doesn't have inherent working charecteristics. If your dog does, it may well be a short time.

When i first started clicker training, i was always taught that it wasn't a panacea to everything. That there was a hierachy something like Emotions, classical operant conditioning in terms of their influence on the dog. Today i would not change that a lot,  but would believe that Emotions have a bit more to do with behaviour!! So you could look at doing emotion switches that are related to behaviour changes. 

One way to get a more active go go dog, and a way of getting the dog to understand that mistakes and rowdy nosiy behaviour  are now ok is to play doggy style with your dog. Dogs that have highly developed social barriers can take ages and ages and humans do everything wrong. We are overbearing, to noisy, not rough enough when we should be and too rough when we shouldn't be. It is fairly certain from the science that play particually RAT (Rough and Tumble ) play has a huge place in learning and makes dogs feel real good. There are some good books and DVDs out there.

Some trainers present pump priming with play as "relationship building". To this i say B***S. It is just switching modes for the dog from  a passive state to an active play have a go state. A good DVD to see this happening (and just one way of playing with a dog...) is Susan Garrett's 2X2 weave poles DVD. Getting a small non play orientated dog into this state takes a long long time... try somewhere between 6 months to a year, but it is fun and worth it.

Susan Garrett has a good way of initiating play on her web site. This is by no means a total endorsement of her methods from me, but i do like these things in her practice.

When i get around to it, i will show a web video of play with my dogs. My older dog that goes like a demon is nearly all manufactured and took some time.. My younger boy is quite flakey but started from a higher base.  It is the foundation of highly animated heeling and ring behaviour.

 

 

 

 

 

Thanks! I will look at her info on getting a dog into play. That's something we struggle with. She does not have a lot of drive (she's a Chinese Crested hairless, bred to make some money for the breeder, nothing more was thought of...), but she does pretty well, for me. She will rarely tug or play in public, and I've been working hard on getting her through that to get her more up. Some days, we have it, and some days, we don't.

 There is an article (still in draft form ) that i wrote on play... OMG i could get into a recognised magazine (I am just being cynical, I am).

 http://www.ykdogproducts.com.au/doglibart1.html

Here it is . You might like to look at Yvonne's products while you are there. She is a tireless worker for things canine .

A training buddy of mine put a CDX on a hairless chinese crested. Good Luck!!

 

We're working on it! She almost has her RAE and she's trained, but not proofed, through CD work. We've started dumbell work, broad jumps, and drops in front (for the eventual DOR). She's a good, little dog, just not a lot of natural drive. I'll be thrilled, when I  have a puppy to start out right. She didn't come to me until she was a bit older (3 1/2 or 4 mos?) and she had to get healthy before I could start with her. I think it makes a big difference with such precision work.

Just got on here and saw you responded, Thanks for explaining!

WOW, how quickly dogs are shaped!!
Here is an update: I do still put them all outside before I dish up the food but now all dogs must SIT before I open the door to go outside. This has helped stop the trampling of rushing outside on top of each other. They are calmer. I have stopped responding when they (namely Arlo) leaps up because they think it is dinner or breakfast time just because I got up and moved around the house. This has really stopped the frenzy-nervousness of Arlo. I "read the mail" as one person phrased it, until he lays back down. Sure enough, over time he stopped being so jumpy, running to the door, when I would get up.

Another hurtle: Every dog WAITS at the door (bloodhound is still needing work with this but is doing it) and I call in ONE dog BY name! They are learning their names! Right now I am still doing Daisy (bloodhound) first because she is so new at it. But I am still making her sit and wait.

Arlo has to sit and wait (just a few seconds) at EACH door (door to go out, door to come in, and door to the bathroom where he eats) but the most important change that I have seen is that he looks at ME!! ME ME ME!! Not staring, drooling, at the open door, butt barely on the floor as he waits to bolt, he is in a full-sit-wait and looks to ME for the permission. Can you tell this is a breakthrough for me? Thank you ALL!! He is really coming around.