Sagan’s Baloney Detection Kit on NDT philosophy

Kevin Behan

The question is which speculation/interpretation is the most logical.

That's not it at all. Again you show a limited understanding of science. Any interpretation is based on results, those specific to a study but they must also account for results in other related studies. 

You also seem to think that all speculations are equally weighted. That's not so. Yours, for example, belong in the trash bin because they rely on a lot of assumptions, as well as a fair degree of magical thinking, "network consciousness" being particularly ridiculous. 

Evidence supporting the theory of the stork includes the following:
1. It is a scientifically established fact that the stork does exist.
2. The alleged human fetal development contains several features that the theory of sexual reproduction is unable to explain.
3. The theory of sexual reproduction implies that a child is approximately nine months old at birth. This is an absurd claim.
Everyone knows that a newborn child is newborn.
4. According to the theory of sexual reproduction, children are a result of sexual intercourse. There are, however, several well
documented cases where sexual intercourse has not led to the birth of a child.
5. Statistical studies in the Netherlands have indicated a positive correlation between the birth rate and the number of storks.
Both are decreasing.
6. The theory of the stork can be investigated by rigorous scientific methods. The only assumption involved is that children are delivered by the stork.
 

Kevin Behan

What I'm saying is that every animal works according to a universal emotional core

You might as well say that every animal works according to universal invisible robots.

There is no differences between those two statements. Except that we know robots are real while we can't say the same for a 'universal emotional core'  

Kevin Behan

This renders nature as an interconnected whole, not as separate entities in competition.

Kevin Behan

What I'm trying to point out is that the current theories have no model for consciousness because they are reading thoughts into their observations of behavior. 

 “To renounce the goal of comprehending the “thing itself,” of knowing the “ultimate truth,” of unraveling the innermost essence of the world, may be a psychological hardship for naïve enthusiasts, but in fact it was one of the most fruitful turns in modern thinking” – Richard Courant 

ron2

Oh my God! Dog domesticated itself? Am I one of the lucky few that's even read a primer on evolution? Creatures do not evolve to mee the environment. Evolution introduces mutations. Some mutations survive better than others.

 Well Ron2, you are talking about a guy who doesn't know the difference between aggression and bite inhibition.  If simple definitions are not within reach, what do you expect?

corgidog

@poodleowned back to square one ;0 i thought we already covered this.

it is ironic and funny how unaware you are of the meaning of your own words. nobody is asking you to believe in or use ndt. but you are participating in a forum thread whose purpose is dedicated to being disrespectful towards kbehan. reread the title of this forum in case you've forgotten (which you obviously have). kbehan is defending his position and hasn't belittled anyone else in the process. you and others have on numerous occasions. he just doesn't agree w/ the way you and others see things. but i see that this kind of thing is offensive to you.

i have many friends who have trained their dogs using either dominance and/or positive reinforcement techniques. i've seen that training fall apart first hand. you may blame this on the practitioner or the dog, however, i do not think this is the case. it's the model. on the other hand i've seen amateurs with no prior experience implementing NDT and have amazing success. success even with very 'difficult' and aggressive dogs. check out the NDT forums if you don't believe me. it's not the person or the dog, it is the operating premise on which they base their training.

this suggests that your model doesn't work as well as you'd like and this is why you find NDT offensive.

and you think that dog has a medium prey drive? your observations are way off. look at the play session at the end of the clip. that dog is wicked intense.

First the reality checks. My oldest poodle is as intense if not more so, and i wouldn't call her high drive.

My boy is more intense and i would call him moderate drive

My older Lab was way more intense and he was a higher dirve dog.

Several Shutzhund dogs that i train with and one of  whose puppy i hope to have some day soon i significantly more intense. They are from police and East German lines.

 The premise of NDT is well just plain flakey. We have proved it over and over and over.

The practice is derivative, most of the moves methods that have / or are being used by other trainers.

 Rewarding by putting a dog into a higher dopamine stage is still R+ and you can't get away from that. It is such a high reward that if you withdraw it, most of my dogs would stop doing what they are doing instantly.Training at it's very base is about developing and using reinforcers that work for the dog.

I don't find NDT offensive just wordy and superflous, I much prefer NDT to older dominance methods it seems way less abusive, but they both exist on very poor theoretical bases. it is one of those situations where people do nearly the right things for all the worng reasons.

The point of convergence is that I do find that many high drive dogs get into the wrong hands. They need a whole lot of work and often do drop out of the conventional R+ training because of this factor. If you have read my posts you might have seen my hesitancy about a couple  of aspects of training .

Personally these dogs are what i want and what i live for. To me the wonder is getting a dog without a whole lot  of drive to do much at all, and really they are the largest population.

Last week i was walking around a show. There were three 6 month old Labs sharing a crate. The owner was telling  me what wonderful dogs they were. What i didn't say was that the Labs i would like would have created absolute mayhem by bow, the crate would be upside down and they would be playing body slam games right through the show.

 The bit about my model not working well for me is a real stretch. One of the reasons that i trial is to provide myself a reality check. A bit like asking NDT to set up some reasonable experiments. You to trial your dog and get some results. I am not a professional dog trainer, so surely you lot can do better??

I have absolutely struggled with Kevin. He figuratively speaking plods across many fields of science without a by or leave most often getting it wrong and then not caring to listen. If i was of that ilk, i would find it offensive and arrogant as some of my workmates do. I don't i just find it misguided, sometimes funny and sometimes plain tragic. You see i can tell you that a normal review within my profession is a hell of a lot more rugged. I have been quite polite.Others have been less restrained and i sure as hell know why.

Burl

Hey PoodleO,

 

Is 'get it to sing' just an expression meaning something else, or were yoy being literal?

Actually both :) GSDS often sing ( or sort of whine which detractors would say) when they are really geared up ready to go.

corgidog

Believing that dogs think, IMO, leads us into the situation where we think they are actually learning what the commands mean. But they really have only formed associations with arbitrary commands.

 Wow!  Could you distort the facts any more? "Cookies" are not allowed at trials. And if you train properly the cues are not arbitrary but extremely reinforcing in their own right. 

Most competent trainers quickly move away from food reinforcements once the behavior is learned. Any stimulus that results in a positive / hedonistic experience IS of intrinsic value to any animal.

As far as NDT training, despite the claims, it's been a complete loser. Look at the results.  They are non-existent in AKC/CKC/KC, never seen in IPO, FMBB, NKVP, Mondioring, Campagne, NVBK, NAVHDA, DVG.  They have zero results.  In comparison people like Ivan Balavanov, Joanne Pflug, Bernhard Flinks, Doug Deacon, Michael Ellis, Gottfried Dildei all (or their students) have had success in competition. Same applies to their absence in the working dog world.  (This comment also applies TV clowns, Millan and Pattison)

 The results say it all and we find NDT and it's trainers to be totally ineffectual.  The NDT results are as non-existent as their group mind.

corgidog

Dogs can't hold abstract concepts in mind as can a human.

There are studies showing dogs are capable of abstract thinking. 

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/04/070426145103.htm

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/11/071128105543.htm

Maybe Kevin should get in touch with the people who doing work on Animal Cognition to tell them that they are wasting their time.  I'm sure his lack of educational background, credentials, facts, common sense, published research will convince them to hang it all up :)

poodleOwned

If i was of that ilk, i would find it offensive and arrogant as some of my workmates do. I don't i just find it misguided, sometimes funny and sometimes plain tragic. You see i can tell you that a normal review within my profession is a hell of a lot more rugged. I have been quite polite.Others have been less restrained and i sure as hell know why.

I do find him quite offensive. As a working researcher (cell-signaling) I am not directly involved in animal cognition or behavior but I am familiar with many of my fellows that dedicate their time to honest inquiry into nature. People like Behan are patently offensive, dangerous and show the supreme arrogance only found in the supremely ignorant. I recognize the doesn't care about being accurate, he has no interest in the facts and will not hesitate to lie to make a point. My participation is simply to prevent other people and their dogs from being victimized by this nonsense.

 And yes Corgi, this know-nothing trainer has belittled the work hundreds of scientists, trainers, lab technicians and honest people everywhere.

As far as NDT training, despite the claims, it's been a complete loser. Look at the results. They are non-existent in AKC/CKC/KC, never seen in IPO, FMBB, NKVP, Mondioring, Campagne, NVBK, NAVHDA, DVG. They have zero results. In comparison people like Ivan Balavanov, Joanne Pflug, Bernhard Flinks, Doug Deacon, Michael Ellis, Gottfried Dildei all (or their students) have had success in competition. Same applies to their absence in the working dog world. (This comment also applies TV clowns, Millan and Pattison)

The results say it all and we find NDT and it's trainers to be totally ineffectual. The NDT results are as non-existent as their group mind.

 Still here, bloggin' away.

I am no trainer or dog competition expert, so I cannot address the charge of MilkyWay, but I wish MW would take his tone down a few notches, as our tone nearly got this useful give and take discussion thread of NDT killed.

MilkyWay is not alone, I spouted off a time or two in frustration, but if we can watch it, our discussion - begun by the spaceman himself - should provide further insights and altered views (from both sides of the debate, hopefully).

TheMilkyWay

I mentioned several well known trainers and their students / followers show up on on the podiums.

I don't think Behan and cohorts are alone. As i have moved throurgh this dog world i have got even more cynical than i was previously.It seems like results are something that certain trainers are exempt from. Sometimes i think that the primary qualification to get listened to as a trainer is to be able to tell people whatever they want to hear.

I guess that  there is a significant audience for what we would say are crystal waving long haried ex hippies wanting a group hug over their dogs. I guess Kevin has found the market and has moved right on in.

One of the reasons that i put my dogs titles on my signature is that i am not afraid of my dog's success. Every one of those titles tells a story. For example My dog Cadbury (Labrador) got his Tch at the age of 13 yrs and 6 months. In the two months prior to that he had to do three other tracks. His Tch track was done in bush was over 1200 meters and had two acute and four other corners. He did it in 10 minutes flat. So please don't ever tell me that i have no idea what drive is and what to do with it, or  how to condition a dog . It was a huge highlight for me. I am not a professional trainer, i work hellish hours in my job and i have to be an efficient trainer.

TheMilkyWay

Most competent trainers quickly move away from food reinforcements once the behavior is learned. Any stimulus that results in a positive / hedonistic experience IS of intrinsic value to any animal.

I guess i now know I have it all wrong and in the future will   stand in the middle and  act like a moose :)

Now seriously, i am getting a little peeved with this nonsense over bite inhibition, but i need to check Kevin's research skills before i waste any more time.

 !) Who set up the concept of modern puppy classes and why?

2) What would be his/her comtempary criticism of many of these classes?

3) What in the developmental process makes bite inhibition a good idea for a dog to learn?

4) What is so critical about the age that a dog should be taught bite inhibition by?

5) Was this person a scientist?

TheMilkyWay

I am not directly involved in animal cognition or behavior

I am involved in both. I don't find Kevin offensive, arrogant or dangerous. Just incomprehensible. I gave up quite some many pages back. He's not speaking any language I know. It seems a little bit dramatic to consider him anything other than another person trying to make sense of their world. It's all anyone is trying to do. Given the sheer number of people out there spreading misinformation about dogs, animal emotions, and training, Kevin seems quite harmless in the scheme of things. He's shot himself in the foot by choosing to make up his own models and terminology and picking ones that seem excessively complicated to folks like me. Maybe we ought to thank him for that, but then, I'd rather people listened to him than certain other trainers that have a much wider audience and shall remain nameless.

I guess I am feeling dispirited about it all as a whole. I almost wonder what I'm doing wanting to talk about the finer points of good rewards, how to manipulate arousal and emotional states, and conditioning when there are still hundreds of people out there insisting that you can reinforce fear with rewards, or that your dog will see you as leader if you make sure he eats after you. 

poodleOwned

TheMilkyWay

I mentioned several well known trainers and their students / followers show up on on the podiums.

 

 

I don't think Behan and cohorts are alone. As i have moved throurgh this dog world i have got even more cynical than i was previously.It seems like results are something that certain trainers are exempt from. Sometimes i think that the primary qualification to get listened to as a trainer is to be able to tell people whatever they want to hear.

I guess that  there is a significant audience for what we would say are crystal waving long haried ex hippies wanting a group hug over their dogs. I guess Kevin has found the market and has moved right on in.

One of the reasons that i put my dogs titles on my signature is that i am not afraid of my dog's success. Every one of those titles tells a story. For example My dog Cadbury (Labrador) got his Tch at the age of 13 yrs and 6 months. In the two months prior to that he had to do three other tracks. His Tch track was done in bush was over 1200 meters and had two acute and four other corners. He did it in 10 minutes flat. So please don't ever tell me that i have no idea what drive is and what to do with it, or  how to condition a dog . It was a huge highlight for me. I am not a professional trainer, i work hellish hours in my job and i have to be an efficient trainer.

 

Well, Therapy Dog is not a title, but, as accomplished by my dogs anyway, it certainly bespeaks their ability to act on cue, restrain themselves from normal doggy pursuits while working, and show off their talents at obedience demonstrations.   And, I finally found a discipline that I like, and feel good about doing.  Some here would say that it's not "real" obedience, yet two of my dogs just completed the requirements for tricks titles.  Nope, not sanctioned by any group (they are available by having a witness sign off on the tricks your dogs can do - and no, I didn't cheat LOL) but through Kyra Sundance's new program "Do More With Your Dog"  Because I am heavily invested in training pets, with the prime goal of reducing the number of dogs relinquished to shelters, I want my dogs to do something, albeit at a high level, that normal everyday pet owners can also do and have fun with, even if they are novices.  I, too, am unafraid of my dogs' success.  I'm also unafraid of any failures they may have!  What I am afraid of is the huge amount of pervasive misinformation about dogs that is being perpetrated on those novice pet owners by (well, name your poison).  I get people coming in to class every session who have no idea how to train a dog, but they all think they should be saying "tsst" to them repeatedly.  Of course, they get the same result as if they were standing on their heads blowing bubbles.  We should all aspire to a higher understanding of dogs based on legitimate scientific inquiry, and not blindly accept unproven theories, no matter how charismatic or appealing their proponents are.  Don't drink the Kool Aid - if you don't know why scientists are mad at these guys, find out!  Advance your own knowledge by learning what science is - and is NOT.  Otherwise, you will become a member of the doggy flat earth society.

spiritdogs

 Advance your own knowledge by learning what science is - and is NOT.  Otherwise, you will become a member of the doggy flat earth society.

Spiritdogs, I am guilty of ignorance in effecting dog behavior.  What one basic dog training book would you recommend?  We don't want to do anything special, just have two well-behaved dogs - which they are for the most part.

I trust your insights as you helped us with Peanut's aggressive outbursts against Sissy (now deceased after getting two great months before her hemangiosarcoma took over again)/  Peanut has not had an outburst since we started  being more NILIF oriented.  Still, she can be aggressive on the leash w/ most dogs, and I think Red tends to give her a wide berth.  Peanut seems insecure and I guess this makes her fear agressive.