Youngster jumping and grabbing at your hand during a walk-arrgh!

diane303

OK - when the dog is jumping up and biting you hands and grabbing your arms - what positive attention should I give him?

You should try not to give him any attention. Attention is attention in his books.

What I would do if I was working with this dog, if he's that out of control, is to put a head halter on him immediately and help him make the right decision. Right now he cannot control his own behaviour, so I would be helping him to make the right choices. When he got mouthy and bitey, I would gently and calmly pull upward on the halter, preventing the ability to bite and causing him to rock into a sit. When he sat, I would reward him and continue the walk. Halters give you a form of head control that no other collar or harness can do, and clearly your body language and voice are not working, so it might be time to try something else.

It's not that you want the halter to become the necessity, but right now I think it might be. He clearly can't control his behaviour on his own at this point (I am curious if he is that hyperactive in other circumstances as well), so he needs your help to help him make the right choices, because he doesn't know what they are, and he can't do it himself yet. Walking him with a halter for a while will give you the control to prevent injuries to yourself and him, and to set him up for success. A halter will give you the chance to teach him a new routine and walking manners.

diane303

I believe that the piles of testosterone that is racing through him right now fuels a lot of this behavior.

I don't think this is true. I work with intact animals every day, and testosterone fuels marking, mounting, mating, and migrating. I really don't think it will have a lot of effect mouthing, I think it's a different ballgame. I don't deny that it would be a good idea to perhaps neuter him, but I don't think I would rely on that as a solution to the problem either.

 

What about positive attention when he IS behaving and none when he starts to misbehave?  And yeah, I also have done the shoving a toy in the mouth very, very regularly when I needed to.

Kim_MacMillan

diane303

OK - when the dog is jumping up and biting you hands and grabbing your arms - what positive attention should I give him?

You should try not to give him any attention. Attention is attention in his books.

What I would do if I was working with this dog, if he's that out of control, is to put a head halter on him immediately and help him make the right decision. Right now he cannot control his own behaviour, so I would be helping him to make the right choices. When he got mouthy and bitey, I would gently and calmly pull upward on the halter, preventing the ability to bite and causing him to rock into a sit. When he sat, I would reward him and continue the walk.

I totally agree here. I ordered a "Canny Collar" because the leash clips on the back of the neck instead of in the front. I have used this head collar on my pointer who is over-the-top prey driven. I works very well. When I take it down off the rack, she gets excited because she knows that it's time for a walk. The quality of the walk has continued even with a flat collar.

We've had three good walks in a row so far. I'm not sure why. I praise him profusely when he has given me a good walk without incident.

I have used the non attention method several times and it only worked once. Every good walk really strengthens the good behavior - I'm trying to be optimistic. He pulls a bit too - I'm not even going to correct his pulling.

This might sound really desperate, but I sing to him during our last couple of walks. I use to do this with one of my horses when she was young and silly and it help her get into a rhythm. Maybe it's working here too.

 Diane I am sorry this boy is behaving so poorly BUT remember he didn't get like this overnight and won't be cured overnight.

As difficult as it is I would continue to ignore him (arms folded, head to the sky) on walks and also keep something acceptable for mouths handy.  Bugsy was a mouthy monkey and although he got over it mostly I bet he was over two when if he got super amped he would mouth.  We, from the get go, put an appropriate toy in his mouth every time he attempted to mouth. Sure at age 5 he still runs for toys upon everyone's arrival but that's fine - most everyone finds it cute!

Ummmmm, I talk to my dogs ALLLL the time when we are walking.  If people think that I'm nuts, guess what?  Oh well!  Keeps the dogs in tune with me since they never know when a SIT request might slip out, followed by treats........singing is just a more musical version of talking....

jennie_c_d

diane303

Balls out bound and determined to make me react. I ended up scruffing him with both hands

 

....and giving him what he wanted. Why punish the dog, when you can prevent the behavior? Give him a way out. Give him a way to get POSITIVE attention.

 

Scruffing is more likely to cause aggressive response than to stop it.  I see a few problems that have occurred with this dog.  Number one, he is being reinforced somehow for his negative behavior.  Sometimes, people do this unwittingly, when they yell, push, scruff, yank, etc.  As Kim pointed out, attention is attention.  And, for many dogs, attention is very reinforcing.  It sounds as though this dog has not learned any self control, and this is not all that uncommon for adolescent male dogs with little in the way of formal training and limited social experience (not saying that either applies in your case, though it could).  Bite inhibition is usually developed not in the litter so much as once the puppy has left the litter and is playing off lead with other puppies his own age.  Pups that are bullies should play with slightly older puppies.  In normal play, you will notice that once a dog becomes obnoxious, his playmate might yelp (or not), but the play will be terminated momentarily and that tells the obnoxious one that he has transgressed, and that, if he wants the game to continue, he should inhibit his own obnoxious behavior;-) 

One really good idea - watch Ian Dunbar's video on training adolescent and adult dogs (I think you can get it on Amazon video on demand as a download).  There are some really great exercises on that tape that have worked very successfully at convincing dogs that they can calm themselves down.  You can't win the war of wills - you have to give your dog the skills to be able to make the decision to act correctly.  We call it setting the dog up for success.   What you don't want is to get physical with the dog - he will learn not to trust you, and he may get more aggressive as he gets older.  So, try the exercises, and try a bit of hands off clicker training (www.clickerlessons.com) which will make training a fun game for him that he can "win" without being rude:-)

As to the walks, sometimes it's better not to take long walks with no breaks if you have an adolescent dog.  Instead, stop every 25 yards or so and let the dog settle himself (by now you would have done most of the exercises on the Dunbar video) - you can feed some treats as a classical conditioning exercise so that he begins to understand that stimulating noises, traffic, joggers, etc. are a predictor of good stuff, and not a reason to get all hyped up.  

diane303

when the dog is jumping up and biting you hands and grabbing your arms - what positive attention should I give him?

 

You don't. You prevent the behavior, and set the dog up to succeed. Personally, I did that with my current mouthy dog, by teaching her to carry something on the walk. Gives her something to focus her energy on, besides grabbing at my hands and pant legs.

I have to say the Calvin has been an angel today. I finally got the Canny Collar and, after a bit of distress over having this "thing" on his head, he settled down and gave me a perfect loose leash walk right beside me with only an occasional balk to reach up and swipe at the nose band. It was wonderful. We have taken two long walks today and the second walk was even easier. I've been working on the "fetch", "hold it" & "give" command with him. He caught on quick. I did one very mild collar twist when he wouldn't take the dumb bell from my hand on command. It's training and structuring the one behavior that is annoying - his mouthiness. He's really gotten in to it and loves our training sessions. We were also working on an "around" finish and a nice heel position sit. I work with all three dogs together so there can be a little "Oh, me, me, me" affect to motivate him. He has also learned "pretty please" for a treat. Good for training and strengthening him out of a puppy sit. Now I wish I could keep him a bit longer because I see a really pleasant change in this dog. I would like to reinforce it. My husband is over Calvin, though, and want to get back to just having the two bird girls again.

I guess I'm a bit appalled that your husband doesn't see the progress you've made and give this dog a break, rather than dumping him.  I also wonder why you find it necessary to give a "collar twist," whatever that means, to force a dog to take a dumbbell.  Force training for retrieve is SO not necessary.  Try this instead: http://www.schutzhund-training.net/obedience/clickret.html.  Much easier and kinder for the dog. 

A collar twist is a collar tightening, high up around the ears. According to my understanding, you twist until the dog's head is pushed forward, and it's mouth is forced open, put in the dumbbell, and praise. I don't know for sure, though, because I don't force train.

 I wouldn't use any kind for force until I absolutely was confident that he understands the command.  The little bit of a twist did not physically force him to take the dumbbell.  It just said, "Here, fella, I insist."  I did it once and since then, he acknowledges my command and takes the dumb bell. He is at the point where he readily takes the dumb bell, holds it with a very light touch under his chin and, actually, gives it back when you say "give".   There are so many neat variations to this, when you finally get it conditioned, it can make his retrieving skills much fun even on a rainy day inside.  Teaching him to fetch items.  fetching the item from different pieces of furniture.  Holding the item and heeling on command.  It gives him the confidence to know that these skills are good things to be used to make you happy.   I also taught him "pretty please" to strengthen his sit and get him away from puppy squirming and get his back end strong and solid.  This dog has a lot of potential.

My husband in struggling with advanced metastasized prostate cancer.   I work full time.  I'm fortunate enough to be able to bring a dog with me to work, but it is a distraction and I have tons to do.  My husband has the dogs during the day when I'm at work and a third rambunctious dog is a hardship for him and stressful to my other dogs and their routine - although they were very good for Calvin while he was visiting.  My husband is great with dogs and Calvin loves him. I wouldn't expect my husband to watch our 4 yr. old grand children an additional week either for the same reason. 

 My daughter was over to pick him up yesterday and we went over everything that I've done with him  She is trilled. and will continue.  This is best. 

 It's nice that your daughter will take him then.  But, I still say that if you are saying "I insist" with the collar that you are coercing the dog, and he really could be complying voluntarily with other methods.  Sorry, I don't like collar twists, ear twists, or anything else that physically forces the dog (and, yes, a collar twist is physical and it hurts, else why would the dog pay it any mind) when there are methods available that do not use pain as an inducement.   I hope Calvin has a nice life and learns to love learning...

He is my daughter's dog. I was just sitting for him for the week. She would not give him up for the world. I still believe that, with some dogs as with children, you must insist sometimes.

 I believe you must insist, too, but the methods I use involve things other than pain to make my point.  Sequoyah just earned an advanced tricks title and has never heard the word "no" or been physically corrected, so it seems to me that you ought to be able to get a puppy to do a simple "sit" or "retrieve" without twisting a collar around his neck.  I should think it would make you feel better, too, knowing that your puppy understands, and is not afraid.

congratulations on your advanced tricks title. Rest assured, Calvin loves learning. He's a very confident dog who is very full of himself and, at this time of his life, a rather rude adolescent, although rather engaging when he's good. He's a very lucky young fella because many people would have just dumped him because of his behavior and treated him much more harshly than a mild collar twist. I know because I am involved with bird dog rescue and what I see is TRULY appalling. My daughter has been very positive in his training and wants to do the right thing. Thank you for your input.