Should We Ignore or Celebrate the "Wolfiness" in Our Dogs?

I get the whole "release" thing and working in drive or using the dog's mind is often more exhausting than pure exercise (my dog needs more rest after 5 minutes of bitework than a 2 hour hike).  Where I disagree is the claim that doing these activities actually makes a dog less aggressive.  I still do not understand this theory or see any proof to support it.

JackieG

I would think survival is the primary goal for a hunt by any predator. 

Hi, Jackie,

Thanks for bringing up an important point.

Certainly,at least in the broadest terms, survival is obviously a factor. But unless wolves are aware of their own mortality, or understand what "survival" means, etc., then they can't really be said to act in the interest of their own survival. That can't be their motivation.

Also, when you see footage of wolves hunting, during the early part of the chase, it almost appears as if they're playing a game. On one level, they don't seem all that different from dogs at a dog run playing chase. It only appears to be serious when the wolves get in close enough to be in danger of being gored by the prey's antlers, etc. That's when the teeth come out. That's when the heart rates go off the charts. That's when

Now, Liesje may disagree with me, but my feeling is that drives operate by increasing the amount of stress in an animal's emotional system. (Think of an intact male dog going after a female in heat; he's in a very high state of stress, panting, drooling, his eyes almost spinning, his every cell almost buzzing with stress.) So while hunting does satisfy the wolf's survival needs, my feeling is that the wolf is primarily hunting to reduce his own feelings of stress.

In her most recent post, Liesje said

Liesje

I get the whole "release" thing and working in drive or using the dog's mind is often more exhausting than pure exercise (my dog needs more rest after 5 minutes of bitework than a 2 hour hike).  Where I disagree is the claim that doing these activities actually makes a dog less aggressive.  I still do not understand this theory or see any proof to support it.

Would it help if we were to use the term "unwanted aggression?"

Aggression has many faces, many different meanings that can be applied to all sorts of activities. Within Western society, we often praise the aggressive businessman, but find such aggression in a business woman unseemly. A sportscaster might say that a golfer who decides to try a difficult shot that could put him in the rough, so that he can catch up with the others on the leader board, has made "an aggressive move." Aggression can even be seen in the arts. A reviewer might write that a composer, ballet dancer or choreographer "exhibits a new aggression" in their work.

So aggression can exist on many levels, good and bad.

So when I use the word aggression, in relation to pet dogs with behavioral problems, it's always about the dog being unable to modulate or control his natural aggressive tendencies. Unwanted aggression.

I hope this helps clarify my point of view,

LCK

Lee Charles Kelley

Think of it this way. Hunting large prey is a dangerous business. Wolves don't want to do it if they can help it. (That's, presumably, why some wolves will settle near a garbage dump, to go straight from "search" to eating, without all the dangerous steps in between.) So Nature has to have some means of motivating the pack to face the dangers of an animal, or group of them, that could easily kill or maim an individual wolf. The way She does this is to slowly increase the amount of stress the animals feel until they can't take it any longer, they leave the safety of their den, and go out on a hunting expedition. Their primary goal isn't to hunt, it's to relieve tension and stress.

WHAT?  This is anthropomorphizing at a an absurd level.  What in effect you are claiming here is that  traits for species' survival are  secondary to the ultimate directive of evolution in Nature - to maintain a calm canid!!  On this asinine claim, Mother Nature is doing nothing other than exactly what Caesar Milan teaches.    

I challenge you to support this diaper-load w/ credible references.  And if you insist on playing the game of aloof  avoidance of my requests to demonstrate credibility, I would hope that other members here second the motion.

Lee Charles Kelley

Certainly,at least in the broadest terms, survival is obviously a factor. But unless wolves are aware of their own mortality, or understand what "survival" means, etc., then they can't really be said to act in the interest of their own survival.

Nope, I just don't agree with the above statement.  

And dogs are mating to reduce stress?  Not to reproduce as part of survival of the species?   Again, I disagree.

LCK to be honest most of your articles and posts just confuse me.  You keep referring to "aggression" using these pretty out-there human examples that I'm basically skimming over because this is a forum about dogs (not to mention I take issue with most of the human examples anyway...).  I honestly now have no clue what points you are trying to make.  Earlier you stated that there is "almost mathematical certainty" that your tug games decrease aggression (see the quotes below).  Now it seems you are talking in circles.  At first it sounded like you were talking about a fearful or reactive dog, then you said aggressive, now you are using yet another term "unwanted aggression".  I can't really follow where you are going with this.  Also, I tend to be extremely skeptical of any theory that is based on training pet dogs with behavior problems.  If I want to study active aggression then I look to dogs of sound mind and body that are known to possess and show this trait, not a dog that has a fear reactivity problem.

Lee Charles Kelley

My philosophy is that the harder a dog can bite in play, the less need he'll have to bite because of fear or aggression. I've noticed in my training practice that one of the hardest things I encounter is convincing an aggressive dog to bite a tug toy. He just doesn't want to do it. He'll try to bite every dog or person he sees on the street, but he won't bite a tug toy. But then, once I do get him to play tug with me, all his aggression disappears.

[....]

I have no trouble at all standing by my statements about how playing tug-of-war with aggressive dogs, where you always let the dog win, and praise him for winning, gradually reduces and then cures the dog's aggressive tendencies.

[...]

With the dogs I've known, giving them a safe outlet for their aggression through play, whatever and however you define aggression, always makes them less aggressive. It's almost mathematical in its certainty.

Lee Charles Kelley

Certainly,at least in the broadest terms, survival is obviously a factor. But unless wolves are aware of their own mortality, or understand what "survival" means, etc., then they can't really be said to act in the interest of their own survival.

 Emphasis, mine.

Lee, I don't want to burden you with yet another challenge that you will be unable to meet, so I'll just correct this absurdity of yours straight out:

What you state in my emphasized text is a bald-face denial of 'instinct.'  I think they still teach this stuff in school.

JackieG

Nope, I just don't agree with the above statement. 

Me neither.

Dogs hunt because they are hungry and/or because a prey animal makes movements sounds and have odors, that excite them enough to want to investigate and pursue.

Dog's are very aware of their own mortaility, which is why their "fights" are almsot always preceded by a huge amt of posturing "are you sure we have to do this", type of interaction. It is BAD to be injured because the injured don't hunt and those that don't hunt don't eat...and those that don't eat weaken and die. There are more body language phrases in dog to AVOID conflict and injury, to submit and to placate, than there are to instigate...this shows that avoidance of physical conflict and overt aggro behavior is beneficial.

Dogs and cats will often wander away when mortally injured or old to the point of death...because they are aware of their own inability to defend themselves...they know they are hurt and vulnerable...they hide it.

Evidence to the contrary...abounds....just live with and observe dogs in any form if you have doubts.

 rwbeagles, that is a most excellent post - it gives me quite a few ideas to chase down relative to animal reason.  Thanks, I never thought of those points in that light!

rwbeagles

Dogs hunt because they are hungry and/or because a prey animal makes movements sounds and have odors, that excite them enough to want to investigate and pursue.

Thanks for you comments. You make some good points.

I would simply ask, if dogs hunt because they're hungry, why do most dogs who chase squirrels, for example, not eat them? What about tennis balls and Frisbees? Do dogs want to eat them? What about the dog who chases cars? Is he hungry for metal? So I would agree that dogs hunt -- and even scavenge -- because they're hungry, but not necessarily for food.

rwbeagles

Dog's are very aware of their own mortaility, which is why their "fights" are almsot always preceded by a huge amt of posturing "are you sure we have to do this", type of interaction. It is BAD to be injured because the injured don't hunt and those that don't hunt don't eat...and those that don't eat weaken and die. There are more body language phrases in dog to AVOID conflict and injury, to submit and to placate, than there are to instigate...this shows that avoidance of physical conflict and overt aggro behavior is beneficial.

I agree that the avoidance of physical conflict is beneficial, but that doesn't automatically mean that the dog or wolf knows that he is a mortal being, or understand what death is. I see it as more a matter of needing to feel safe, which is purely instinctual, rather than a self-referential, higher thought process. Yes, it's bad to be injured, primarily because it's painful, but also because it puts the dog in weakened condition, physically. But for a dog or wolf to be thinking in the linear terms you've put forth -- "If I'm injured, I can't hunt, and if I can't hunt then I won't be able to eat, and if I'm not able to eat I'll weaken and die" -- is, I think, a bit too complicated.

rwbeagles

Dogs and cats will often wander away when mortally injured or old to the point of death...because they are aware of their own inability to defend themselves...they know they are hurt and vulnerable...they hide it.

That's an interesting point. But I would ask, are they deliberately hiding their weakened condition from others, or are they looking to find a place that feels safe to them? I suppose it could be either, but the second explanation is more parsimonious, and therefore more scientific, at least until we have a lot more evidence proving that dogs think the same way that we do.

Anyway, that's how I see it,

LCK

Lee...you don't have to KNOW what death is on some esoteric level..to know you don't want none of it. Dogs do NOT fight to the death unless there is NO OTHER OPTION. A dog WILL give in almost 99% of the time before the mortal wound can be struck...why is that? If dogs have no sense of the folly of throwing one's life away they'd simply fight the first other dog they came across until they died. HUMANS Had to override that instinct with selective breeding...THAT is how strong the will to stay alive...is.

All mortality IS is being able to be killed and yes I do think every animal out there predator or prey is aware of the consequences of being "caught"...by an enemy. Otherwise they would dumbly stand there and get smoked.

You are overanalyzing something that is one of the very basic tenant of Nature. Like Kenny Blankenship says..."Don't get eliminated".

There is no need to "feel safe"  or hide your weaknesses, if you are an immortal being LCK so you are contradicting your own theory once again.

rwbeagles

You are overanalyzing something that is one of the very basic tenant of Nature.

Yep. 

I would simply ask, if dogs hunt because they're hungry, why do most dogs who chase squirrels, for example, not eat them?

I thought you wanted to talk about wolves hunting, not domestic pets.  I don't know for sure, but I'll bet that squirrel is eaten by a wolf.

Lots of animals show an awareness of death, and opossums feign death.  Most anecdotes point to instinctive responses, but they are more cognitive for higher mammals.  Alas, I found nothing about dogs.  I recall Pat McConnell telling how her euthanized pet was lying in the room and how the other dogs readcted, but it's been a while since I read it

Hi

Liesje

I guess where I fundamentally disagree with the theory is that my dogs are bred selectively FOR strong active aggression and fighting drives.  But aggression is NOT the same thing as being reactive, especially reactivity based in fear.  There is no place for that among working dogs.  We use tug and flirtpoles and various games starting as early as 6 weeks to encourage and develop these drives.  To some extent you can see fighting drive/active aggression in a dog as young as 8 weeks old if you know what you are looking at.  Right now I am doing very light flirtpole play with an 8 week old dog.  I have every intention of maximizing the dog's active aggression, and that is one trait for which I specifically chose to purchase this dog.  His father is strong and powerful and known for stopping even a large, fit helper on his escape bites. 

yes that is what we do amongst a wide range of dogs. I flat out disagree in theory and in practice that playing tug does anything at all about aggression except in the observers mind. There is a pretty strong body of work that would back up my contention.

I strongly suggest that the 90% of dogs that are showing fear aggression are NOT put into play mode unless they are a whole lot more secure. In fact my experience would suggest that many of these dogs are stressed beyond belief with attempts to get them to play. That is why they don't. It is chicken and egg. I reckon that constant attempts to do so is a kind of cruelty based on the stress that i have observed in these dogs.It can actually be increased at attempts to make them play.

Now , if a course of CC had been done before hand then it is a different situation

 Agreed, pO, which is why I will repeatedly challenge this theory.  I think it makes some downright dangerous assumptions...