Should We Ignore or Celebrate the "Wolfiness" in Our Dogs?

miranadobe

Lee Charles Kelley

 "Unified Dog Theory IV: Celebrating the Wolfiness in Dogs."

LCK

LCK, if you wish to discuss a topic here, please post content here, not a link to your personal blog. 

Hi Paige,

Sure, no problem!

Can I ask why it's not permitted to post links to my PsychologyToday.com articles?

Thanks!

LCK

I guess where I fundamentally disagree with the theory is that my dogs are bred selectively FOR strong active aggression and fighting drives.  But aggression is NOT the same thing as being reactive, especially reactivity based in fear.  There is no place for that among working dogs.  We use tug and flirtpoles and various games starting as early as 6 weeks to encourage and develop these drives.  To some extent you can see fighting drive/active aggression in a dog as young as 8 weeks old if you know what you are looking at.  Right now I am doing very light flirtpole play with an 8 week old dog.  I have every intention of maximizing the dog's active aggression, and that is one trait for which I specifically chose to purchase this dog.  His father is strong and powerful and known for stopping even a large, fit helper on his escape bites. 

I guess I just find it rather silly to think that playing a tug game can somehow alter the genetic makeup of a dog, especially games that are used to do exactly the opposite of what is being described.  Defense drive and fighting drive are genetic.  If you have a spook of a dog that bites because it's fearful and reactive, well that's a big problem but that is not "aggression". 

I don't really care what CM or other TV show dog trainers say about it. Those guys haven't spent decades breeding, training, working with, and competing with working line dogs with strong fighting drives. 

Lee Charles Kelley

miranadobe

Lee Charles Kelley

 "Unified Dog Theory IV: Celebrating the Wolfiness in Dogs."

LCK

LCK, if you wish to discuss a topic here, please post content here, not a link to your personal blog. 

Hi Paige,

Sure, no problem!

Can I ask why it's not permitted to post links to my PsychologyToday.com articles?

Thanks!

LCK

 

Tell you what, Lee, just to show I can big up, I am happy to let bygones be bygones and forget you ever said I was unintelligent and duplicitous.  So I am going to help you out, here, and answer your question, even though you seem unwilling to address mine.  I think Paige and yourself will agree that you are in violation of forum rules 10-12.  Congratulations, you beat me out, I was found in violation of only #5, though I still am unclear of “board wars”!

Glad to assist, anytime.

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Liesje

I guess I just find it rather silly to think that playing a tug game can somehow alter the genetic makeup of a dog, especially games that are used to do exactly the opposite of what is being described. 

Hi Liesje,

Thanks for being a bit more concrete.

The process, as I see it, is similar to the process in kids, especially teenage boys, where if you give them an outlet for aggression through sports, they're usually more emotionally balanced overall. With kids, of course, it depends on how much the coach, the parents, and the other kids egg the kid on. With the dogs I've known, giving them a safe outlet for their aggression through play, whatever and however you define aggression, always makes them less aggressive. It's almost mathematical in its certainty.

Liesje

I don't really care what CM or other TV show dog trainers say about it. Those guys haven't spent decades breeding, training, working with, and competing with working line dogs with strong fighting drives. 

 

I don't know how Cesar Millan's techniques or philosophy came into this discussion. But Kevin Behan is just the type of trainer you're describing. He grew up in just such an environment, and eventually left his father's business and went out on his own because of his father's insistence on buying cheaper dogs, with bad breeding (Behan senior's view was that genes didn't matter, he could train any dog for protection), and because of his father's insistence that dogs are always trying to dominate their owners.

Thanks again for your response,

LCK

Lee, my posts are based on my observations that you seem use the term "aggression" with negative implications (like fear reactions or inappropriate outbursts).  I do not see true aggression as a negative thing, in fact for me it is a desirable trait.  I am not training just to give my dog an "outlet" or to extinguish aggression, I am developing and promoting it.  The more I train and the more my dogs mature, the more I see the dog transition from being neutral or maybe even lacking in confidence to lighting up in defense drive to learning to fight back with active aggression.

I absolutely disagree that by working dogs this way they are becoming "less aggressive" and until this thread I've never seen or heard any such theory or any evidence to back it up.  If you are right then it stands to reason that my dogs should start with a Schutzhund 3 title and progress backwards to their BH...  Why does my dog not jump lower the more I do agility?  Or get slower the more I roadwork him?  Makes no sense, sorry.

I maintain that drives and aggression are genetic.  To an extent, socialization and training can express or suppress genetic traits but the genetics always defines where along that spectrum the dog could fall.  Say we bought cloned dogs and I trained one way and ended up with the dog on the green, you trained another way and ended up with the dog on the blue, but both dogs *have* to fall along the red.

Maybe what you're seeing is that your tug games are bring out more confidence in the dog, he is learning a game that gives him some control in a way he understands so he feels more secure and empowered by these games.  I use tug games for the same reason, but to claim (mathematically even) that this actually makes a dog less aggressive I just believe is false.

Liesje

Maybe what you're seeing is that your tug games are bring out more confidence in the dog, he is learning a game that gives him some control in a way he understands so he feels more secure and empowered by these games.  I use tug games for the same reason, but to claim (mathematically even) that this actually makes a dog less aggressive I just believe is false.

 

Hi, 

Thanks for the clarification. And you're absolutely right about the need in your line of work to put the aggression on cue, not to get rid of it.

I think we have different definitions of aggression. I can see that for you it's a quality to value. In your case, that's obviously true. I guess what I'm saying is that the more a dog gets an outlet for his aggression, the less need he has to act aggressive unless he's given a cue to do so. I've always seen it as the difference between the upstart martial artist and the seasoned master. The master never needs to act on his aggression because he's mastered its use and its force. (I'm not sure if I'm making sense, I came down with a cold last night and have a high fever.)

The other thing you talked about (with SchutzHund dogs becoming less aggressive, therefore, less reliable), makes total sense to me, meaning that that clearly doesn't happen. Just the opposite. But again I see SchutzHund as a way to "channel" the dog's aggression into the behaviors required for that sport. In his book Natural Dog Training, Kevin Behan says he first heard the expression -- "channeling the dog's aggression" -- from an old herding master named Mannel.

So I think we're sort of on the same page, just with different meanings attached to some key terminology.

Do you ever work with pet dogs who have aggression problems?

LCK

I don't think there needs to be aggression on cue.  What you are saying seems to imply that the more often it is on cue, the more you have control.  I disagree with this.  A dog with true active aggression is not going to go into fight drive over something menial, and when presented with a real conflict you aren't going to be able to turn it off on cue.  It's either there, or it's not, and it shows itself when appropriate.  There does not have to be an "outlet" or a "cue" to manage and control it.  In fact it's not really possible to put something like that on "cue".  I can send my dog after an innocent bystander, he knows the difference between a real threat and not.  It's very common for people to mistake bad behaviors, reactivity, and hyperactivity as "drive".  That is not the case.  Some of the best dogs I've seen worked (and worked myself) with balanced drive and good active aggression appear like lazy couch potatoes when not working.  They are not trying to attack other dogs or treat their owners like a doormat.  Quite the contrary, often dogs who have a good balance of drives (prey, hunt, pack, defense, fight, etc) are bred by people who know what they are doing and know how to produce a good fighting drive and a dog that is of sound nerves and temperament.  Aggression is not something that has to be tamed.

I don't work with pet dogs, I lack the patience to deal with their owners.  I have had people stop and watch me train my own dogs and ask about training but I always decline.  No, I have not dealt with a truly aggressive pet dog.  I have seen plenty of reactive and fearful ones though.  But faced with a true confrontation, I've no doubt these dogs would pee on themselves and run.  Usually they are all "talk".  Fighting drive is not really something that people test in a pet.

On the martial arts analogy, let me give my perspective. I have no advanced belt rank. However, I have studied Kenpo Karate, Kung Fu, Tae Kwon Do, Aiki-jujutsu (a mixing of Aikido and Jujutsu), Tai Chi (short form), Jeet Kune Do, Bushido (literally, spirit way of the warrior, aka "Code of the Samurai";), survival training from an assistant scoutmaster was an Army Ranger LRRP and his instructor, and hand-to-hand combat pointers from my friend, Lee, US Navy SEAL, 1964 - 69, Da Nang, Viet Nam.

The physical work itself does not "release" aggression. It might be a way to burn off energy. For me, it was not. It was about learning to defend myself with bare hands and weapons (short bo, long bo, sherakin, sword, dagger, handgun, special training from the Army Ranger in how to ignore discomfort and adverse elements) and be the one who walks away, still breathing. That is, I don't fight for points, like a boxer or MMA. When I fight, one of us is not going home tonight.

Not long after I started Kenpo Karate, I got in a few fights, merely because I thought someone said something about my mother. It's been many a long year to get a handle on my temper and it is still there, the urge to engage in physical combat when in confrontation. What the skills gave me is confidence in my abilities. But learning to control my temper was another ball of wax. Part of it was realizing through my mother and my Kenpo Karate instructor that the physical part of martials is 10 percent. The other 90 percent is between the ears. The more confident man walks away. Not because he has worn himself out fighting but because the idea is to not need a fight.

 Many a dog only shows an aggressive move to get the other party to go away. Some dogs air snap in order to avoid a bite. Growl to avoid an air snap. That is, many dogs are actively seeking to move away from aggression, hence many a dog is not suitable for K-9.

For dogs, confidence is similar. A confident dog rarely fights. And can often influence the behavior of other dogs because they are not prone to fight. Yet, they growl at just the right time and pitch and convince another dog not to fight.

And in K-9, and Liesje can correct me if I am wrong, the bite is not to release the dog's aggression or build confidence, it is work, it is a job. But it has to come from a dog that will bite, so that it can be put on cue and strictly managed to the point where the dog will not bite until an exact command is given. And then releases reliably on another command. And the bite only happens while working, not at rest, or at home with family. So, bite work does not happen in the normal family setting.

Not all dogs go for the bite. Shadow doesn't go for the bite. If you are a stranger, he may prance around and bark loud enough to scare you but he will keep a minimum distance away. And I kind of like it that way. And we can play tug and that's just fine. I will play tug with the kong in his mouth. But that doesn't mean he won't bite if he had to. He's just not prone to bite. And he can still get defensive against other dogs. Because tug play with me is different than "defending me" against other dogs.

Be that as it may, I agree that building confidence in dogs may help their social skills. Most of us do that be rewarding confident behavior that leads to bite inhibition.

Some dogs may wear themselves out in drive and that could be mistaken for "solving" aggression with aggressive play.

ron2

Be that as it may, I agree that building confidence in dogs may help their social skills. Most of us do that be rewarding confident behavior that leads to bite inhibition.

Some dogs may wear themselves out in drive and that could be mistaken for "solving" aggression with aggressive play.

 

Agree and agree.

As for the playing/tugging, the thing about it is that even if Lee's theory was correct (that you can somehow lessen actual aggression each time you bring it out), that sort of interaction doesn't really bring out true aggression anyway, unless you have a dog that feels threatened by it's owner/handler.  It's the same reason my husband can't work my dogs in protection.  They know him and either are not threatened enough to activate or it would just be inappropriate for an owner of the dog to work the dog in that way.  The tugging encourages prey behaviors and good gripping but not true active aggression.  I think the real theory at work is "a tired dog is a good dog."

True, a tired dog will lay down for a while. Maybe nap for 30 minutes to a couple of hours. And then they wake. I also think there is something of a difference between bite work and tug. Granted, tug involves a bite and holding the bite but it isn't the same as K-9 bite work, involving strike sticks, gunfire, shouted orders from police officers (or training substitutes). A K-9 has to specifically hold the bite regardless of stimuli except for one, the command to release. And then he must release, based on that command, regardless of all other distractions. And that is work, wholly different. And maybe a timid dog might seem better playing tug with a human that lets him win. How does he fare against tug with other dogs who aren't as generous as the human? And I could see how the implication is that a dog winning tug with a human might build confidence in the dog, if they have a similar LEARNING strategy or mechanism to humans who learn martial arts. In essence, knowing they now have the skill brings confidence. But does it link to decrease in aggression, like a human trying to walk away from a fight, having fighting skills equivalent to a loaded gun? Does it solve fear aggression? And am I using a double positive? Is there true aggression outside of a fear reaction?

And in the world of human conflict, having the martial skills doesn't always preclude a fight. In fact, the surest way to get in a fight in confrontation is to mention you have martial skills. Now, the other guy really wants to fight. Or, even moreso, you mention Kenpo Karate and he mentions Smith and Wesson. Disarming a guy with a gun is like catching a bird by sprinkling salt on its tail. You have to be close enough.

I'm also not sure of what mechanism allows the dog the transfer of confidence in tug to confidence with other dogs. I'm not saying that it isn't there, as yet, I'm not sure what it is, to even know if it's there or not.

Now, it could resolve back to OC. Dog's experience with the human is rewarding and, in the face of confrontation with another animal or human, the dog defers to his own human, as that beats the stress of confrontation to smithereens.

ron2

Is there true aggression outside of a fear reaction?

 

Yes

Liesje

I think the real theory at work is "a tired dog is a good dog."

 

Yes, that's sort of what I'm getting at. But there's a difference between mere exercise and release of deep tension. 

Going back to the difference between wild and captive wolves, captive wolves are much more liable to exhibit "dominant" behaviors -- i.e., forms of aggression toward one another -- and that's because they don't have a satisfying outlet for their aggressive energy: chasing and biting large prey.

Think of it this way. Hunting large prey is a dangerous business. Wolves don't want to do it if they can help it. (That's, presumably, why some wolves will settle near a garbage dump, to go straight from "search" to eating, without all the dangerous steps in between.) So Nature has to have some means of motivating the pack to face the dangers of an animal, or group of them, that could easily kill or maim an individual wolf. The way She does this is to slowly increase the amount of stress the animals feel until they can't take it any longer, they leave the safety of their den, and go out on a hunting expedition. Their primary goal isn't to hunt, it's to relieve tension and stress.

All of Nature is designed along lines of tension and release. What happens in the human body the moment we wake up? Our cortisol levels immediately go up. This is the underlying fact of all existence. The only time any organism, including a human being, is ever completely free from tension and stress is when we're dead.

So my point is that there's a mechanism in place in dogs and wolves, where the ultimate release of tension and stress comes through biting, particularly the kind of biting where the animal grabs hold of something with his teeth and jaws, and tugs on it with all its might.

Again, it's simple math. A 10 - 20 min. session of tug is roughly equal to a 2 - 3 hr. walk.

So it's not just about getting the dog tired, it's about providing the most satisfying release of tension.

Other than that one point, I agree with you and Ron.

LCK

Lee Charles Kelley

Think of it this way. Hunting large prey is a dangerous business. Wolves don't want to do it if they can help it. (That's, presumably, why some wolves will settle near a garbage dump, to go straight from "search" to eating, without all the dangerous steps in between.) So Nature has to have some means of motivating the pack to face the dangers of an animal, or group of them, that could easily kill or maim an individual wolf. The way She does this is to slowly increase the amount of stress the animals feel until they can't take it any longer, they leave the safety of their den, and go out on a hunting expedition. Their primary goal isn't to hunt, it's to relieve tension and stress.

I would think survival is the primary goal for a hunt by any predator.  Hunger is a form of stress if that's what you are trying to say.   Wolves hunt many different animals, not just large, dangerous ones.  The benefit in hunting a large animal (lots of food) outweighs the risks.  Otherwise, they would strictly hunt small, non dangerous prey.

Liesje

I think the real theory at work is "a tired dog is a good dog."

 

Yes, and I'd add the terms "fulfilled" and "secure" to that statement as well, depending upon what that particular dog needs to achieve all three.