The "B" in Balanced Training?

 Good vid.  'Lots of reward and minimal punishment' sounds good, but for balanced training, perhaps saying 'just enough reward and punishment' will better serve the objective.

I think the term "balanced training" does lend itself to the belief that things should be 50/50. But everyone has their own definition of how they use this term. Same with the term "positive". I've certainly seen a huge division in those who use the "positive" label all the way from "positive only" to "positive based" training. These are mostly marketing terms and labels folks use to either sell their beliefs or describe how they train in simple terms.

My own use of the term "balanced approach" in working with dogs incorporates not only the Operant Conditioning quadrants, but also includes Classical Conditioning and Social Learning. How much I use, when, and where really depends upon the dog and what I'm trying to achieve within the moment with said dog, and overall. Since dogs vary so much as individuals, I can't really give any percentages I will "always" use in every situation.

Angelique

My own use of the term "balanced approach" in working with dogs incorporates

Therein lies the problem though. Everyone who is currently a trainer, behaviourist, or whatever label one calls themselves to train their own or others' dogs, already believe that what they are doing is *balanced*. If they didn't, they wouldn't be doing what they were doing. To be honest, a *balanced trainer* is just as much as a label as *positive trainer*, *J&P* trainer, etc. It's all just labels.

I really enjoyed the video, and I found myself nodding at everything he said. The only problem with it is that everything he said is utterly and completely subjective and open to interpretation. And that interpretation is still what divides people between what they feel should and shouldn't be done to, or with, animals.

I agree with his message, and pretty much follow the same lifestyle. I too take a *balanced approach* to teach social boundaries, rules, routines, and manners, producing reliable behaviour. I think it's very important to understand, and utilize OC, CC, and Social Learning together. But the actual, visible, means to get there may be quite different.

I also distinguish between *everyday training* from competition training.

And what I mean by that is that I have made the decision to purposely and consciously eliminate punishments and R- from training for competition. I think of it like this - the dog doesn't care about titles, humans do. The dogs do it because we convince them to (whether through pleasure-inducing or pleasure-reducing methods, or a combination of both). Therefore I make it my goal to ensure my dogs are having fun, and I believe that I do not have the right to punish my dogs for my own ego or competitive desire. Others will draw a different line, but that is the personal line that I draw for myself and my dogs.

I might use the odd "eh" to interrupt a puppy going for a cooked bone, and I might use a body block to assist in teaching door manners (and I might be as apt to clicker train it, depending on the dog), and I will change my posture depending on the client dog I am working with. I will always start teaching *things* through reward-based methods, and then use what I've taught to teach routines and structure - sit/stay at doorways, sit/stay for dinner, go to place for beef ribs, target my hand to throw a toy, etc. I will use management to prevent the dogs so I don't set them up to fail, while promoting (rewarding) good habits, and using selective penalties (I do like his word) for other behaviours, such as biting puppies, pulling dogs (penalty yards), timeouts for barking, turning my back for attention seeking, etc.

But in terms of teaching skills for agility, or for Rally obedience, or for my demonstrations to do at public events, where you are pressured to perform correctly, I consciously choose to avoid using aversives. But the funny thing about that is, I see how much success I get out of removing penalties and aversives for that, and how highly-trained I can teach my dogs in high-stress situations and competitive situations where emotions run high, that I end up realizing that I can do the same at home as well.

Which is why, when I was working with a client yesterday, I was able to demonstrate how far Shimmer has come, from the dog who fearfully lunged at other dogs and barked hysterically, to the a dog that was now a demo dog for a client-dog who was fearfully-lunging, barking hysterically, and trying its best to contact with Shimmer in a less-than-positive way. Granted, I didn't plan to set her up to be a demo dog, she was the dog I happened to have in the car between clients, but she blew me away by how stable she was, and even when the dog reacted to her in a very intense manner, she simply looked to me for direction and followed my cues.

Kim_MacMillan

I was able to demonstrate how far Shimmer has come, from the dog who fearfully lunged at other dogs and barked hysterically, to the a dog that was now a demo dog for a client-dog who was fearfully-lunging, barking hysterically, and trying its best to contact with Shimmer in a less-than-positive way.

This brought happy tears to my eyes. AWESOME, Shimmer! Just awesome!

I guess I struggle with "balanced training" for two reasons: 1) like has already been said, everyone has a different idea of "balance" and 2) to me, it sort of implies that there's some sort of compromise necessary in order to achieve balance. 

I simply use whatever tool and/or method is appropriate for the given dog in the given context with regard to what I'm trying to communicate or achieve.  I don't worry about whether it is balance or not or meets some pre-determined criteria or not.  Either the dog is learning (and when I say "learning" I don't mean simply doing what I want, but actually understands what is being asked, knows how to get to the reward for doing so and knows the consequences of not doing so) or he's not.  There's usually a dozen different ways to train the same thing and which one I choose is not because I'm seeking "balance" but because I'm looking for the appropriate method given the context.  I might train one dog to out while playing tug method A and then train him to out in protection method B and then train a second dog a third and fourth method.  I can't label myself a "balanced" trainer because then I'd have to pick just one of those methods as the "balanced" method and that's not how I train.  I won't compromise in order to achieve some arbitrary standard of "balance" that supposedly applies to all dogs in any situation.

With all due respect, all I can say is, duh.  :)

Excellent thread, Angelique. And it echos what I have said before, and some took it the wrong way because, perhaps, they were miffed at not being as "in control" or "dominant" as they thought of themselves. Primarily, when someone used a "correction" and it didn't stop the behavior, it only redirected the dog for a moment or longer, that correction was more of a communication than the cessation of the targeted behavior. And I totally agree that corrections need not be physical strikes or hard collar pops or even hanging on a leash while a dog helicopters himself to be a correction and certainly an effective correction. Sometimes, a creature does something that is wrong. Consider that the popular notion in some education circles these days is to not correct test papers with red ink but with purple. We wouldn't want to "hurt" a child's "feelings" by suggesting they got something wrong. Well, I am old school to some extent. If you got something wrong, you got it wrong. Get it right and you won't get that red mark, again.

So, to that extent, I understand the use of correction in training. And yes, one can phrase as "not that way" and you do yourself and your dog a lot of good by following with "instead, this way."

I can also see where a correction is not so much a "punishment" as it is marker to an eventually fruitless action, in some circumstances. I "trained" Shadow to walk with musher commands. I never had an treats with us when I was doing it. Hook means stop and I would stop and be a tree. Hike means go and I would start walking, which was signified by removal of tension on the leash as I physically move forward. Gee means right, haw means left. And if Shadow was straining or trying to walk in a different direction than what I said, that was his problem. We are still going my way. The strain on the leash was not a punishment or even a correction. Straining or pulling in any direction but the one I chose became pointless, after a while. Some might even say that was associative or classical. Though it could still be OC as walking my way produces the least amount of resistance (using that ole' thermodynamics thingy). -R, to be a little more accurate. Walking in my chosen direction is easier than walking in other directions. Of course, it helps that I have an advantage. I am 6' 6" and could butterfly 130 lbs. There was no "my way or the highway." Just my way. And it wasn't a fight and he could sniff things but only in the direction I was going.

Others' mileage may vary because dogs are individuals and some behaviors do get set awfully hard. Either through breed trait or just that specific dog. I recently asked if it was possible for the Korean Jindo in that one DW episode to be walked off leash and I am fairly certain the answer is no. Not as a indictment against Milan, or anyone else, just that some dogs are that way. There's a few dogs here that are on their best behavior in public when wearing a muzzle and that's the way it shall be.

I agree with Liesje and Kim. Balance is whatever application suits that dog at that time. At the same time, as I keep saying, don't assume that the leash pop or "eh" is a correction so much as it a communication for redirection of energy or focus. And it's not really about being pack leader, so to speak. The dog has the option of not listening to you at all. I'll bet you an expensive dinner that you could leash pop my dog and it will have absolutely no effect. He might cough because he is choking but it does not deter him from whatever you don't like. So, then, it's not a correction, communication, diversion. It's just an environmental thing he has to put up with. So, how do you redirect a dog like that? Getting physical accomplishes exactly nothing. Well, you have to make what you want more important than whatever he is currently after. You haven't eradicated his desire after that other thing. You are competing and offering an alternative behavior that is just as rewarding if not more so.

And there is a tendency at both extremes to assume that you just didn't do whatever well enough. But is more realistic to realize that in certain circumstances, regular applications of training regimen are not going to work. Short of killing the dog, there won't be a punishment harsh enough to stop the dog from pursuing whatever. And no reward savory enough to distract. That's where management comes in. It's up to you (in general) to see that such circumstances don't arise.

So, balance also describes the limits we must place on the dog's environment and access to it. I can get Shadow to do quite a bit my way. But we will not walk off-leash (breed trait). I will not knowingly place him in a situation where environmental stimulus is stronger than the constraints. It's a husky thing. "I love you, you're the greatest human, ... what's that smell? See ya ...."

That leads to another point, too. Some breeds are still strongly working breeds, which has some difference from other more "pet-like" breeds. Huskies were never bred through most of their history as off-leash obedience dogs. So, know your breed. A guarding breed guards, which usually means a defined territory. A husky is trying to get over the next hill at about 40 mph, unloaded. Why? Because that is what he does and dogs like him that could and would do that were bred and dogs that didn't were not allowed to breed.

So, balance is not just, say, a 70-30 reward - correction ratio, it is also knowing the limits of the dog, of yourself, of the dog's breed. Even with Dunbar's refinement of ideololgy and semantics, it doesn't mean that even his method is going to accomplish the same thing for all dogs or for all breeds of dog. The Dog de Argentino was specifically bred to pursue medium to large prey and bite and hold on until the handler comes up and releases them. So, don't think that some training regimen may keep them from going after your pigs. At best, you can sublimate some behaviors but you will not get rid of them because they are survival behaviors.

I am pretty hard on myself. If i do something to casue cessation of  a behaviour , it is technically a punishment, I don't use ahs , nos etc in any facet of my life with my dogs unless it is neccessary and if i do i make sure that it is fast and hard enough that i get the effect i want. 

 Having said all of that, it is most often that Aversives bounce. My goals are a happy lively performance . it is in my best interests and my dogs best interests that this be so. I use a ton of reward. i make sure that there is plenty in the bank by way of play and reward with my dogs. My older dog is getting there, much better than most who advocate a much harsher policy. She is very keen to "work". She is much less bothered by distractions. She is quite reliable.

I particually have an aversion  to the phrase balanced. It is poorly defined . Here, many who claim to be balanced are nothing other than very poor tarted up yank and crank merchants. Or believe that if they say it often enough they might get clients and it might work. My ritual during trial time is one run through at the very most once a week that is rewarded and de stressed. Little bits of exercises every day that we are improving on. On trial day, none of this harsh commands business, my dog si fixated on the starting post and wants to go...

I particually can not uderstand the idea that R+ is ok for training puppies But when you get "serious" you need to get out the big guns. Dogs don't understand serious..

The dogs start to lag, they lose interest and they get even more stressed on trial day... and inevitably fail.Why wouldn' they?

 At some time (i have posted before ) i will show a video of my dog in a real live trail doing UD. She is fast, relaxed and oh she gets high scores.

 I am particually patient in high stress situations. My boy is very keen on checking out other boys and being entire he fancies himself with girl dogs. He is learning that i am the best way that he ever has of getting to them. Sometimes a little boredom goes a long way.

My girl took eight months of pain staking C+T work to be able to work at all in trials, and not worry at all about road noise. Typical me i over did it. She often charges towards roads becuase she thinks that she might be rewarded for it, and has climbed all over a going diesel truck.She loves dog trials...