pessimism and SA study - article link

 I saw it, but not sure what I think of it.  It's hard to know if dogs are really pessimistic by nature or simply conditioned by their living arrangements, prior handling, etc.  Interesting, and maybe there's a correlation, but I wouldn't assume causality just from what that article said.

We'll never really know what a dog is thinking or feeling, and, does it even matter?  I mean, why does it matter whether a dog has SA because it is "pessimistic" or something else?  Either way, it's a genetic component of the dog's temperament that somehow has to be managed or prevented from being expressed.

Liesje

We'll never really know what a dog is thinking or feeling, and, does it even matter? 

LOL  I couldn't agree more! 

The article doesn't have enough info for me to have much of an opinion and basically I agree that dealing with it is the same, regardless of the cause.   I don't understand how this type of study and the conclusion is of any help to people dealing with SA.  In fact, I see some people using this type of study and the conclusion as an excuse to not deal with the SA and throw up their hands and say "my dog's a pessimist and I can't help him". JMHO

JackieG

The article doesn't have enough info for me to have much of an opinion and basically I agree that dealing with it is the same, regardless of the cause.

Honestly I have a hard time believing dogs are pessimists - they tend to be opportunistic

kpwlee

Honestly I have a hard time believing dogs are pessimists - they tend to be opportunistic

I agree,  The terminology bugs me.   Pessimist and optimist are such human personality terms, in my mind, that I can't assign those words to dogs.  I will admit, my dogs are always optimistic about the arrival of regular meals and pessimistic at bath time. 

Except I have two dogs at the opposite ends of that spectrum -- and I laughed myself silly when I read it. 

Billy would be the one to chase the bowl ALL OVER because it ***MIGHT*** have a treat in it - you never know!!! And he'd wag every inch of the way.

Luna, on the other paw, would look at the whole thing with a raised eyebrow -- and yep, she's my one inclined to SA.  But she'd whine and complain all the while but then she's not very food-motivated either!  (and it's always been my opnion that she doesn't trust it to be "worth" it anyway!)

I don't think it' was meant to base your life's training on ... it IS British and the flavor of it was likely a bit less serious than you guys are taking it.  We Yanks tend to get WAY deeper into the whole emotional aspect of things than a Brit would.  That's no slap at either -- it's just a basic difference in how we all view things.

I'll ask David what he thot -- but I'd be willing to bet he laughed when he read it.  It's, I *think* one of those typical British understatement things.  If you want to take it seriously by all means do .. but I kinda don't think so.

I'll ask Luna -- she should be the expert.  And Billy's still going back and forth between the two bowls wagging his nubbing HOPING a treat has appeared!

calliecritturs

I don't think it' was meant to base your life's training on ... it IS British and the flavor of it was likely a bit less serious than you guys are taking it.  We Yanks tend to get WAY deeper into the whole emotional aspect of things than a Brit would. 

I have to disagree with you.  I think the study was done in all seriousness and the tone wasn't in the least meant to be tongue in cheek.   It's a serious subject and I believe the professor was taking it seriously, even if I disagree with the terminology.

I guess I fail to see the point of it at all.  I mean, what is pessimism, to a dog?  My dogs live so much "in the now", they are not capable of being pessimistic.  They are not that forward-thinking.  Even if this study is correct, what implications does it have?  How does it impact how SA dogs are managed?  There are just so many nuances to dog behavior and so much of it is controlled and limited by genetics, I just don't see the value in this type of research and study.

 Lol Kirby would have been all over any bowls looking for treats.  At the same time he also suffered from a mild case of SA. 

Pessimistic doesn't seem like the right word for the behavior.  I don't think the study is a complete waste though.  It offers another view on certain traits found to tie in and perhaps will help paint a clearer picture of what drives certain dogs.  Instead of calling the slower dogs pessimistic I would probably look it them more calculative/thoughtful and dare I say intelligent in their approach.  I could easily see some dogs wheels turning over the bowls placed in the neutral areas trying to work out what part of the game this was, if there was a new pattern, and so on.  Then you have the dogs that depth of thought at the sight of a bowl amounts to FOOD, FOOD, FOOD!!!  I would be curious to see how long it took the various dogs to figure out the initial negative/positive bowl locations depending on if they fell into the "pessimistic" and "optimistic" category.

"A team at Bristol University used human psychology research to compare negative-natured dogs with those that display a "glass half full" attitude."

(emphasis added)

Enough said

JackieG

kpwlee

Honestly I have a hard time believing dogs are pessimists - they tend to be opportunistic

 

I agree,  The terminology bugs me.   Pessimist and optimist are such human personality terms, in my mind, that I can't assign those words to dogs. 

I agree with both Jackie & Karen. 

If the study was only meant humorously, then perhaps the author should indicate "not to be taken seriously" instead of presenting it as if it were research to really ponder.  Dogs are so in-the-moment that I find it hard to believe they dwell on the good and bad aspects of their lives to the extent that they care if the glass is half empty or full.

Krissim Klaw

  It offers another view on certain traits found to tie in and perhaps will help paint a clearer picture of what drives certain dogs.  Instead of calling the slower dogs pessimistic I would probably look it them more calculative/thoughtful and dare I say intelligent in their approach.  I could easily see some dogs wheels turning over the bowls placed in the neutral areas trying to work out what part of the game this was, if there was a new pattern, and so on.  Then you have the dogs that depth of thought at the sight of a bowl amounts to FOOD, FOOD, FOOD!!!  I would be curious to see how long it took the various dogs to figure out the initial negative/positive bowl locations depending on if they fell into the "pessimistic" and "optimistic" category.

That's just it though.  I think they are going about this the wrong way, using the wrong concepts about dog behavior.  The scenario you describe is not something that would ever make me think of the traits of optimism vs. pessimism.  It would tell me more about the dog's hunt drive, food drive, ability and drive to problem solve.

I can't think of a time ever, in any context of training or owning dogs that I've come up with "pessimism" to describe a dog.

To me, being pessimistic just involves too much awareness outside of the immediate environment and too much forward thinking for it to apply to dogs even in the slightest.  In order to be a pessimist - to "perceive life negatively" - you have to have some points of comparison and I don't think dogs do that, or at least not enough to really drive how they act.

I'm actually doing my PhD on this exact topic, aiming to make a start on Spiritdogs' question regarding whether a dog is inherently "pessimistic" or "optimistic" or whether they have been conditioned. I don't think I will be able to answer the question, but the point is not to answer it but to begin to answer it. We all have to start somewhere.

The terminology is a sort of shorthand. We don't think that dogs are pessimistic in the way humans are just as we don't think any of their emotions necessarily equate to human emotions. But basically we say "pessimistic" or we say "shows a cognitive bias towards negative outcomes". It's a lot easier to say "pessimistic" and reasonably accurate in the scheme of things. Cognitive bias is common to humans, but we also know it occurs in rats, starlings, chickens, and sheep as well. I think there's one that shows it in pigs as well, but I don't think it's published yet.

It's important to realise that cognitive bias in animals is an indication of the emotional state of that animal at the moment. It seems to be something that is easily manipulated and can be quite transcient in a normal animal. And that's why this SA finding is very interesting. Mostly individuals get over it and go back to testing as more optimistic than pessimistic, but the SA dogs are pessimistic most of the time, suggesting that whatever their problem is, they are genuinely unhappy dogs in general. You could almost call it depression. To me, knowing that certainly improves current understanding of SA, and therefore puts us all in a better position to treat it AND the cognitive bias test gives us a chance to test the effectiveness of whatever we come up with.

CB is a fascinating topic and has given us a way to possibly measure both positive and negative affective state in animals in an objective way. That is something that's been a huge problem in welfare for a long time. It's easy enough to find indicators of negative affective state, but finding the same for positive affective state is the hard one. That's why welfare mostly focuses on whether animals are miserable rather than whether they are happy.