Tell me it gets better...

I think Jackie is spot on.  I didn't even think of it because I'm just used to my situation, where I am the only one training 3-4 dogs in our house at a time, so even though it's a lot of work for me, I don't have anyone else counteracting the baby steps I'm making or confusing/frustrating my dogs.

I don't agree with trainers that say tugging is bad.  Generally they are misinformed about what is actually happening and how to do it/control it.  Some dogs have a temperament that has a bit of a hectic edge to it, they can get easily aroused and frustrated.  It's easier to have a good outlet for this than constantly be fighting (sometimes literally) against it.  Nikon is this way.  He has never been mouthy, at least not with me, but he does need a way to "unload" when his frustration and excitement level goes up.  This shows through in everything from formal obedience to protection to how we play at home.

 Dogs thrive on attention, even if its negative. He knows your scared and is feeding off this.  If your scared of him, whats the point of having him? Just a question. Not meaning to offend.

tiffy

 Dogs thrive on attention, even if its negative. He knows your scared and is feeding off this.  If your scared of him, whats the point of having him? Just a question. Not meaning to offend.

 

I know, I'm trying to work on it and I'm not scared of him with anything else. I'm not as scared of this whole thing as I used to be. I don't want to give him up, that would be a lot worse so I am trying my hardest to get better at handling him and getting over my fear. 

 What are you scared of?

tiffy

 What are you scared of?

 

That he'll only get worse and I won't be able to control him. 

 In order for Simba to grow into a healthy and happy dog, you need to get over your fears.

tiffy

 In order for Simba to grow into a healthy and happy dog, you need to get over your fears.

 

I know. :-/ 

JackieG

Until and unless EVERYONE is on the same page on how to train and interact with Simba, he will continue to get mixed signals and he will continue to misbehave.   I think he'll figure it out eventually but it's so much easier for the dog and humans if the people who interact with him on a regular basis agree that certain behaviors won't be allowed.   They also need to agree on a method of dealing with the behavior. 

What, specifically, has the trainer suggested for the problem?  How often do you spend working with Simba in a low distraction environment?  Does anyone else train Simba and do they follow the trainer's suggestions consistently?  Do you spend time training every day, even if it's training a trick?  It doesn't happen in a few weeks or even a few months, unless you put in the time. I do understand how frustrating and discouraging an untrained dog this age can be.   You have it harder than some people because you don't have the ultimate say on how Simba is trained. 

 Dog training isn't something you can just learn in a short period of time and be good at it. The best trainers are always learning and improving their skills and timing.  It's more than book learning and understanding the principles of training.  You have to practice until you feel confident and comfortable with the leash and with your timing.  Most of us couldn't get in a race car and run the Indy 500 without cracking up on the first turn but most of us know how to drive a car.  It's a matter of skill levels and the only way to get better is to practice.

 A yard is not a training tool but your brain is. :)  Work with what you have available. 

I know you are frustrated with some of your family members and there may not be much you can do about that at this point.  I do think you should continue to try and work with Simba.  I think I've suggested clicker training to you before and wonder if you ever tried it.  Dogmantics.com has some good videos to get started clicker training and address specific problems, among them leash walking.  Keep on trying and training.

 

 

 

 

I do think he gets mixed signals, but everyone is doing better at being on the same page. It's me and my mom who do most of the work compared to my sister and dad. She's suggested we ignore him and walk away if he's doing this in the house, go into another room and close the door showing him that the game is over. We are following what the trainer told us to do, I train with him every day, I love to train him and he's good at everything else aside from the jumping and biting. It really is frustrating because my mom doesn't always listen to my suggestions. I WISH I could be the only one to train him, because he gets frustrated with my mom and I can tell. He doesn't get frustrated with me because I get him, I know him inside and out and I know when he's had enough. She doesn't and that's why he's worse with the jumping and biting with her than he is with me. With her it's more like "I don't know what you want from me! Can you not understand I'm confused?" with me it's just a matter of not wanting to listen sometimes or he's wanting to play.

I have been working on the clicker training with him with certain things, usually when it comes to his fear issues or things he's not used to. Like he's not crazy about the gate we put up to keep him downstairs, if it happens to fall he goes crazy. So I've been using it for that and he has been improving. I will check out the website and see what else I can do with the clicker training. Here's an idea but maybe I could like walk a foot, click and treat, walk another foot, click and treat outside. So that way when he walks nicely and is NOT jumping he gets praised for it? Do you think that might help? Ugh I wish I could just tell my mom to stop training him, but of course that's not going to happen. It's frustrating because he works a lot better with me than with her. Mom's can be so stubborn.

Liesje

I think Jackie is spot on.  I didn't even think of it because I'm just used to my situation, where I am the only one training 3-4 dogs in our house at a time, so even though it's a lot of work for me, I don't have anyone else counteracting the baby steps I'm making or confusing/frustrating my dogs.

I don't agree with trainers that say tugging is bad.  Generally they are misinformed about what is actually happening and how to do it/control it.  Some dogs have a temperament that has a bit of a hectic edge to it, they can get easily aroused and frustrated.  It's easier to have a good outlet for this than constantly be fighting (sometimes literally) against it.  Nikon is this way.  He has never been mouthy, at least not with me, but he does need a way to "unload" when his frustration and excitement level goes up.  This shows through in everything from formal obedience to protection to how we play at home.

 

I would like to try the tug with him, it's just a matter of my mom. She'll most likely step in and tell me not to because the trainer said not. I will talk to the trainer when she comes this weekend about it, hopefully she'll at least listen to reason.

Tugging with boundaries is GREAT for them. I spend a lot of time encouraging tugging and roughhousing, with mine, so you're a step ahead, with a dog that WANTS to! LOL It gets them up, and into you, and they learn that you're where the fun is, when it's done right. Bean has spent 6 months, now, learning to tug in new places, and she's starting to get there. It's such a great way to increase focus, in a nervous dog.

punkchica321

It's usually when he sees a dog and I don't want him to greet it, sometimes he'll get worked up. How does the look at that game work excatly?

 

 Just wanted to point this out. Having read this, it seems to me that this isn't just Simba being silly/playing rough - he is getting worked up about wanting to greet the other dog and redirecting his frustration onto you/person preventing him from satisfying the urge to release all that pent-up excitement.

I think the Look at That game would be extremely helpful. If he's familiar with the clicker, then you just have to click+ treat when he looks at whatever might set him off. You have to start out at quite a distance so that you are doing this while he is still calm and under control. After a wee bit you should be able to put it on cue - so you say "look at that" (or whatever) and he will look at it, and then re-orient back to you for treat/what happens next.

Once he is doing that reliably, then you can begin to (gradually) decrease the distance between him and the trigger.

Going back to lurkdom now....

 I remember when Erik was a baby he was a terrible ankle biter. In the mornings especially he would be so full of beans he would just chomp really hard and it hurt! He seemed unstoppable at times. He was just so excited with the world it was hard to get through to him. Erik's saving grace is that while he is very easily aroused, he is extremely opportunistic. If the chance to earn rewards comes into the equation he is capable of quite a lot. I was able to keep him off me by asking him to do other things before he got the chance to put his chompers on me. He would give me a beautiful, attentive sit and then a short heel to the nearest toy. We did lots of self-control exercises from an early age, which I'm glad of. I think it has helped him. We now have a rock solid down that is very useful in moments when he gets quite excitable. Erik is a bit like Nikon, I guess. He really NEEDS to do something. He needs to act on things. If he can't, or fears he won't be able to, he spirals out of control. I find giving him something to do usually satisfies him, especially if it's something active.

punkchica321

Liesje

I think Jackie is spot on.  I didn't even think of it because I'm just used to my situation, where I am the only one training 3-4 dogs in our house at a time, so even though it's a lot of work for me, I don't have anyone else counteracting the baby steps I'm making or confusing/frustrating my dogs.

I don't agree with trainers that say tugging is bad.  Generally they are misinformed about what is actually happening and how to do it/control it.  Some dogs have a temperament that has a bit of a hectic edge to it, they can get easily aroused and frustrated.  It's easier to have a good outlet for this than constantly be fighting (sometimes literally) against it.  Nikon is this way.  He has never been mouthy, at least not with me, but he does need a way to "unload" when his frustration and excitement level goes up.  This shows through in everything from formal obedience to protection to how we play at home.

 

I would like to try the tug with him, it's just a matter of my mom. She'll most likely step in and tell me not to because the trainer said not. I will talk to the trainer when she comes this weekend about it, hopefully she'll at least listen to reason.

 

It's really up to you guys.  The trainer just probably is one of those that thinks you should only tug when your dog is super obedient, knows to out, etc.  I think most people have the wrong idea about tugging.  For me, it's a release for a dog that is loaded up, either in drive or in frustration.  I do not require obedience for tugging.  I don't really have "rules" that must be obeyed because we are doing something that is just instinctual for the dog.  I use other techniques to train obedience, boundaries, and self-control but for me, tugging is not used for that purpose.  That is why I use back-tying so I have control without making the exercise boring to the dog with a lot of obedience, or stressful to a dog that doesn't know how to out/release.  Tugging is simply about tugging.  Different people use it different ways; this is just how I use it and it sounds like your trainer has a totally different opinion/use so I'm not out to convince her otherwise but likely she's not really going to be any help showing you how to use it the way I would.

The first dog trainer I went to a few years ago said - LITERALLY - tugging will make your dog mean. So there is this thought out there about tugging (that and also you always have to win or else the dog will look at you as weak ... completely disagree with that). When Ike was young, tugging was just strictly for fun with no rules. Now that he is older, we do have a few more rules. But I think tugging is great because it's a way of playing that allows the dog to be physical with you and satisfy his urge to roughhouse, bite, wrestle, etc. - IN A CONTROLLED, STRUCTURED CONTEXT. It's a totally different game than fetch. Fetch taps into your dog's drive/desire to chase. Tugging is about "fighting"/possession/test of strength. When you watch dogs play with each other, you see they play both games. Sometimes they run around and chase each other. Other time they wrestle or roughhouse or "fight" over possession of a tree branch.

punkchica321

It feels like he's trying to force us to play by biting us, and yes I know some of you may disagree but I think in that way he is dominant. He will bark and talk back if we tell him something he doesn't want to do, and will jump and bite about that as well. So its both wanting to play and being a complete brat. Like right now he just bit me and then moved back like 'c'mon let's play!'. I got up after he let go and walked away from me, he then started going to the others downstairs like 'SOMEONE PLAY WITH ME!'

You are right, he is trying to initiate play by biting. I agree with dominance probably more than any other poster in this forum and i can tell you that "talking back" is not dominance, he is just protesting that it "looks" like you are not getting the message.

I understand that this might be difficult to control because is like telling a hyper kid to calm down when he goes to Disneyland. I dont blame him, he just wants to play like dogs play and that involves "play biting":

 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TAyEexaIeuI

What i do is that i just go ahead and put on these:

http://www.gardeningoncloud9.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/garden-gloves-02.jpg

And we go ahead and do what the dogs do in the video (great bonding time and great way for the dog to really know how hard to bite), after 10 minutes i just give him a rawhide bone to redirect his attention without trying to turn off the excitement from 10 to 0 right away, the chewing will take it down slowly. When he finishes he just lays down on the floor next to me. Thats what works for me

On walks having a short leash is the key, if there is a slack on the leash then you are giving the space enough for him to jump. With a short leash if he jumps you arm goes up automatically, if you just keep you arm straight you can keep him away from you, let your arm go with the flow of the jumping while extended and let him jump. He will be burning his energy and will realize that even if he jumps he will not get to you. Never fails and the dog just gives up in less than a minute.

Walking your dog is another great bonding time, if you can control your dog while walking he willl learn the same inside the house, if he does not listen while walking why it would be different at home. Just practice in the back yard and go out to the street and extend the walking area little by little, one day the street, next day one block, etc. If you are afraid of others looking how your dog misbehaves then go out at night (better that than not doing anything)