Tell me it gets better...

 I'm truly hopeful it does get better. Jackson does the same thing.

Think about it, it's not as bad as it used to be right? So you're making progress with it. If he's anything like Jackson though, it's just going to be real slow progress.

Hang in there!!! Since Ari got better, I do believe our boys will too!

3girls

Hang in there!!!

DEFINITELY!!

Remember, pups go thru "phases" JUST like kids/teenagers do.  In fact the phases are very very similar.  Some of that is triggered by physical stuff (like teething), and much of it is triggered JUST by sheer maturation.

For example -- probably THE most difficult time with a pup is 8 - 12 months.  The running "joke" is that they haven't "grown a brain yet".  Meaning, their judgment sucks.  (and yeah, don't let ANYONE tell you a dog doesn't have judgment because they evaluate the situation ALL the time -- particularly in light of what they may be able to successfully get away with!)

Like 14 - 16 year old girls and 16 - 19 year old boys it's a time to push boundaries in a big way.  Yeah they KNOW they aren't "s'posed to" BUT can I maybe test it again?  MAYBE this time I **can**???  I WANNA ... and maybe THIS time she won't care!"

Do those words go thru their heads?  no.  but the feeling is there -- it's a good thing because it's what helps them become more self-sufficient and eventually it is what makes a rock-solid dog GOOD -- because they learn Mom IS consistent, and no you *can't* do that any time, any where, any place!

Before you go out on a walk with Simba with a regular collar on, PRACTICE at home.  Get him solid on it before you are committed to any distance (or stick the Gentle Leader in your pocket so you can switch if you NEED to but don't unhook him from the regular collar until you get the Gentle Leader ON him and fitted correctly).

They go thru a huge rebellious period -- and with some dogs it lasts longer than others.  Some dogs (and I'm not advocating alpha rolls here) are simply more dominant or forceful in their personalities and require closer training longer.

David STILL handles Luna better than I can because she wants to pull all the time.  Now ... she will walk nicely on lead for him "in training" but when she's out and about with typical bird, squirrel, human and STUFF that has scent??? (meaning **EVERY FRIGGING THING IN THE UNIVERSE**) she is a handful unless you are right on your game all the time.

Also -- occasionally you have to change your tone.  I'm not big on always just "ignoring" bad behavior.  If he all of a sudden breaks into "brainless wonder" mode, stopping briefly and looking at him as if he HAS lost his mind and say in a no-nonsense tone "WHAT do you think you're doing??  With ME!" -- or "Let's go!" or whatever your phrase is you use to announce that you're 'working' or heeling. 

That doesn't mean yell -- that simply means sometimes you have to bring their brain back to front and center to bring them back on task. 

The solution is more training, keeping them absolutely accountable every single time.  Don't ever think you have "arrived" at that magical "He's Trained!!!" place -- it doesn't exist.  With most dogs the instant you let down your guard and don't expect perfect obedience ... you LOSE it fast!

Even now -- Billy's 11 and he's always been Mr. Perfect in obedience for me (he was the easiest dog I've *ever* trained for his CGC and he's always been FAR better on leash for me than for David).  Now that his hearing is very very dim, unless I insist his behavior remain perfect, he wants to look at the ceiling and "not hear me" (meaning do as he darned well pleases rather than the task he knows we're doing at the moment).  I give him touch signs and sign language signs and HE KNOWS THEM ... but .... if I can get away with not giving her my attention cos she thinks I can't hear her MAYBE I can do what I want!!

No way, Jose ... ain't happening!!

To be honest I have very little tolerance for it after a certain age (assuming the dog has other "outlets" like toys, playing tug with you, plenty of exercise and training).  I would correct the dog and the type of correction would depend on the age and temperament of the dog.  There are certain behaviors that I like to freeshape and take a lot of time training, but there are other behaviors that are just simply not allowed (most having to do with how I am treated and my personal space).  How old is he again?  If he's 18 months or older I would nip it in the bud now.  I've seen several GSDs where this behavior was not dealt with and the dog matured to a strong, 75+lb dog that treated the owner like a doormat.  It's not acceptable to me, especially if the owner is nervous around their own dog.  It's probably just a game to him now, or he's aroused about something or picking up on your nerves and doing this behavior to relieve stress, but it will become a habit and just get worse.  He *needs* to know that you simply do not tolerate this.  In some cases, doing the high pitched shriek and then offering a toy just isn't enough.  I would correct him (again how that is given depends on your dog, I can't say since I've never seen him), tell him "no" sternly.  If he doesn't get it, three strikes and he's out.  Put him in a time-out (not in his crate if you want the crate to be a safe zone) and ignore him.  For many dogs, that social correction works well but you have to be consistent.

Liesje

I would correct the dog, depending on the age and temperament.  There are certain behaviors that I like to freeshape and take a lot of time training, but there are other behaviors that are just simply not allowed

This. I would also do exactly as Lies said. This kind of behavior with the wrong person could end BADLY for your dog, given his look and possible breeds. I would nip it, thru corrections and put a basket muzzle on him too, if that made YOU more confident in dealing with it.

If you are frightened and anxious that could well BE his "trigger"...remove that fear...he can't do anything with his mouth...it gives you confidence and will remove his trigger...eventually with redirection and training the muzzle would cease to be even necessary.

If you leave it to "hope" then "hope" will not tell your dog that you dont like what he is doing. I dont know what it has been suggested to you before but this is a really easy issue to correct.

I would say that is actually easier during walks because your dog is actually wearing a leash. I had dogs jumping on me like a fish out of the water when i walk them for the first time and those outbursts never last more than 1 munute before the dog decides that he is just wasting energy. The best of all is that i dont even need to apply any correction, give any command or give any treats.

Not taking your dog out for a walk due to fear that he will behave this way will actually cause the problem to become worse, he will have more pent up energy to burn and he will try to get rid of it by jumping more often.

Bottom like i could care less what other people might think if they see your dog jumping, they are not the ones who live with him and have to deal with the issue.

Jumping is about excitement, control the excitement and you will get rid of the jumping and biting

It's not only about excitement.  It can be that the dog is anxious or stressed or reactive and is relieving those feelings with jumping and biting.  IMO, the dog needs to actually know from the owner that the behavior is not acceptable.  To me it's a bit unrealistic to remove *all* things that might ever cause the dog to become aroused (whether the arousal is excitement, nervousness, stress....) in order to try to avoid the behavior.  The dog needs to learn to cope with these reactions without redirecting at the owner.

 Thanks for all the different points of views and suggestions guys. I think a muzzle would only make things worse for Simba to be honest, so I'm going to try other ways before resorting to something like that. He DOES get walked, just not by me. Of course I'll take him out for bathroom breaks but when it comes to longer walks it's usually the others in the house that do it.

I think right now it's play for him, even though we've never accepted him biting us even as a younger puppy. It feels like he's trying to force us to play by biting us, and yes I know some of you may disagree but I think in that way he is dominant. He will bark and talk back if we tell him something he doesn't want to do, and will jump and bite about that as well. So its both wanting to play and being a complete brat. Like right now he just bit me and then moved back like 'c'mon let's play!'. I got up after he let go and walked away from me, he then started going to the others downstairs like 'SOMEONE PLAY WITH ME!'. When he does bite I do tell him 'no bite' or something along the lines of what Callie suggested like 'I don't know why you think you can bite me, let go!'. I've started to do that recently and it seems to be a bit more effective.

I did try the yelping or trading a toy, that never works for him. I feel that half the reason he is like this is that he needs more romping around outside, but the problem is we don't have a backyard. He will be going to the dog park, even though I'm not all for that it seems my concerns fall on deaf ears. I think he will be fine personally, I'm just worried that some other dogs won't take to him kindly but hopefully everything works out. Personally I'm not going with my parents when they go this weekend with him because I don't care for dog parks.

Liesje that is a very good point, could you give any advice on how to go about that?

Well, first I'd make sure he has an outlet where he IS allowed to "play rough" with you.  Does he tug?  Fetch?  He needs some activity he can do to burn energy and release whatever frustration he has and it's best if there's a toy or something else that you can use together without him treating you like a doormat or his personal punching bag.  If he has high prey drive and/or likes to chase and tug, I would put him in a harness, back tie him, and experiment with doing some agitation with a tug or rag.  This way you have full control, and he's allowed to bark and lunge and bite all he wants.  It's a fun and easy way to exhaust a dog.

As for the biting while out walking, I would correct and use the leash/collar for control.  Correct him and tell him NO and prevent him from doing it again.  Step on the leash so he can't jump up.  If he's in your personal space trying to mouth at you, make it very clear you are extremely displeased and put him in a time out.  Make sure you aren't pulling away or struggling or doing anything that makes it seem (to him) like you are playing his game.  If you need to, have someone else walk behind you with a long line on him to help with the corrections and keeping him off you.  How you correct really depends on your dog.  I can't really say b/c I don't know him.  My GSD is not at all soft and while he has never been mouthy with me, if he were I have a few ways of making that very unpleasant.  Not just the typical leash correction but when I'm working with older dogs that should be past the mouthing phase (like doing some ring training and learning to stack) if they are mouthing me I press my thumb into the soft tissue of their mouth or the roof of the mouth and they spit me out real fast.  A few times of that with a stern NO and no play reaction from me and they learn real fast they'll have to find someone else for that game.

If he's seeing things on walks that are triggering the mouthing and biting, work on the LAT (look at that) game with food.

As for the dog park, if he's OK with dogs that can be fine for exercise, but he and you still need to learn how to play with each other (not him play with his owner's appendages).

Until and unless EVERYONE is on the same page on how to train and interact with Simba, he will continue to get mixed signals and he will continue to misbehave.   I think he'll figure it out eventually but it's so much easier for the dog and humans if the people who interact with him on a regular basis agree that certain behaviors won't be allowed.   They also need to agree on a method of dealing with the behavior. 

What, specifically, has the trainer suggested for the problem?  How often do you spend working with Simba in a low distraction environment?  Does anyone else train Simba and do they follow the trainer's suggestions consistently?  Do you spend time training every day, even if it's training a trick?  It doesn't happen in a few weeks or even a few months, unless you put in the time. I do understand how frustrating and discouraging an untrained dog this age can be.   You have it harder than some people because you don't have the ultimate say on how Simba is trained. 

 Dog training isn't something you can just learn in a short period of time and be good at it. The best trainers are always learning and improving their skills and timing.  It's more than book learning and understanding the principles of training.  You have to practice until you feel confident and comfortable with the leash and with your timing.  Most of us couldn't get in a race car and run the Indy 500 without cracking up on the first turn but most of us know how to drive a car.  It's a matter of skill levels and the only way to get better is to practice.

 A yard is not a training tool but your brain is. :)  Work with what you have available. 

I know you are frustrated with some of your family members and there may not be much you can do about that at this point.  I do think you should continue to try and work with Simba.  I think I've suggested clicker training to you before and wonder if you ever tried it.  Dogmantics.com has some good videos to get started clicker training and address specific problems, among them leash walking.  Keep on trying and training.

 Why aren't you walking him? Is he your dog or the families?

JackieG

Until and unless EVERYONE is on the same page on how to train and interact with Simba, he will continue to get mixed signals and he will continue to misbehave.   I think he'll figure it out eventually but it's so much easier for the dog and humans if the people who interact with him on a regular basis agree that certain behaviors won't be allowed.   They also need to agree on a method of dealing with the behavior. 

Agreed, wholeheartedly. He sounds frustrated, to me, and mixed signals CAUSE frustration. I am the only person who trains my dogs or gives any commands besides very simple ones (Off, sit, leave it, kennel), for that very reason.

Liesje

Well, first I'd make sure he has an outlet where he IS allowed to "play rough" with you.  Does he tug?  Fetch?  He needs some activity he can do to burn energy and release whatever frustration he has and it's best if there's a toy or something else that you can use together without him treating you like a doormat or his personal punching bag.  If he has high prey drive and/or likes to chase and tug, I would put him in a harness, back tie him, and experiment with doing some agitation with a tug or rag.  This way you have full control, and he's allowed to bark and lunge and bite all he wants.  It's a fun and easy way to exhaust a dog.

As for the biting while out walking, I would correct and use the leash/collar for control.  Correct him and tell him NO and prevent him from doing it again.  Step on the leash so he can't jump up.  If he's in your personal space trying to mouth at you, make it very clear you are extremely displeased and put him in a time out.  Make sure you aren't pulling away or struggling or doing anything that makes it seem (to him) like you are playing his game.  If you need to, have someone else walk behind you with a long line on him to help with the corrections and keeping him off you.  How you correct really depends on your dog.  I can't really say b/c I don't know him.  My GSD is not at all soft and while he has never been mouthy with me, if he were I have a few ways of making that very unpleasant.  Not just the typical leash correction but when I'm working with older dogs that should be past the mouthing phase (like doing some ring training and learning to stack) if they are mouthing me I press my thumb into the soft tissue of their mouth or the roof of the mouth and they spit me out real fast.  A few times of that with a stern NO and no play reaction from me and they learn real fast they'll have to find someone else for that game.

If he's seeing things on walks that are triggering the mouthing and biting, work on the LAT (look at that) game with food.

As for the dog park, if he's OK with dogs that can be fine for exercise, but he and you still need to learn how to play with each other (not him play with his owner's appendages).

 I don't really allow tug with him because it seems to work him up more, plus the trainer advised against it. I do play fetch with him a lot during the day, which is his favorite thing. I throw it back and forth, back and forth, I'll trade one tennis ball off with another, play hide and seek. I make sure he gets a lot of play during the day. Wouldn't him being pulled back just frustrate him even more? It sounds like it would for him. :-/

Sometimes it's difficult for me to get on the leash in time before he's actually up in the air, he just gets worked up so fast its hard to catch it sometimes. I'll try bringing my knee up to buffer him though, if that's okay? I'll admit it's hard NOT to struggle because my instinct to get him OFF of me is really strong. It hurts so I want to pain the stop ya know? Should I press my thumb in his mouth? Like on his cheek you mean?

It's usually when he sees a dog and I don't want him to greet it, sometimes he'll get worked up. How does the look at that game work excatly?

tiffy

 Why aren't you walking him? Is he your dog or the families?

Because I'm scared of him jumping on me. :-/ He's the families dog.