Elder German Shepherd -- Behavior Problem or Physical Problem?

    • Bronze

    Elder German Shepherd -- Behavior Problem or Physical Problem?

    Hi All, I beg you not to judge me. I am really going out of my mind. I have tried posting on another forum and was just bashed over and over. That was not helpful! Here is the situation. My boyfriend has a German Shepherd, she is 13 1/2 years old. For the last two + years she has been going potty in the house, both urinating and defecating. My boyfriend does not take seriously the problem and I am thinking that he is the problem (and maybe even me, somewhat), more than the dog, but I'd like to see what some other people think about the situation. She has had a lot of changes in her life in the past three years. Three people that lived with her left suddenly, another dog that was her companion was given away, and then two new people moved into her life, not to mention she moved twice. Now, I will be honest. I absolutely hate dogs, and the breed I hate more than any other is the German Shepherd. The reason I can't stand them goes way back to my childhood. Not only did I almost lose my right eye to a German Shepherd who bit me, but as an older child, my father favored his two German Shepherds over his two daughters. I mean, it was bad. Us girls got no attention, but the doggie girls got plenty. They did everything with him, and we got to do nothing. Over the years, I pretty much was conditioned to hate them. So, basically, I understand that it's very likely that my boyfriend's dog can somehow feel that I resent her. I associate German Shepherds with my neglectful father...hard to change, even with counseling. The problem first started about 6 months after I moved in. She would get very nervous and upset whenever we made love, so we started shutting her out of the room when we wanted privacy. At that point, she started peeing in front of our bedroom door. I knew that was anger. I encouraged my boyfriend to crate train her, but he would not hear of it, thinking it was mean to put her in a crate. The problem just escalated from there. Pretty soon she became such a nuisance in our bedroom, keeping me from sleeping, or waking one of us up, that we shut her out altogether, and that's when she started peeing in the hallway. After that, she started going anywhere and everywhere. At first it was just urinating, but it soon moved to defecating, too. She is a very pushy and demanding dog. Often times she will try to push me out of the way to get to him, or knock me over trying to get to him. Of course, this just makes me like her less and it makes me very angry with my boyfriend. I can see that she is full of anxiety. She pretty much does not ask me for attention, but the minute my boyfriend gets home, she will not stop following him around, to the point that it drives him crazy. This is where I see that HE causes a problem, because instead of doing something constructive about the problem, he just yells at her, over and over, to get out of the way. He swears at her, and even calls her names. I have heard him comment that he just wishes she would hurry up and die. I know that he doesn't really want her anymore. His life is different. He is a full-time student, along with working full-time, and he doesn't have the time that he used to to play with her. But more than that, he is just sick of having a dog, and he is so disgusted with her potty issues, that he shuns her. He rarely gives her positive attention. I can see that she is desperate for it, and personally, I think that's why she keeps peeing and pooping, sometimes right in front of him! I think she is still very angry. I think she's furious. I don't blame her. She does have bad hips now. She no longer can run and play. Sometimes she can barely stand up. We have taken her to the vet. She does not have a UTI. My boyfriend resents taking her to the vet, and he resents spending the money on her. I have told him numerous times that he needs to do one of three things: either put her to sleep or give her away to someone who will care for her properly in her elder years, or work with a dog trainer to get her behavior under control. Of course, he will hear of none of those options. Talking to him about this issue is like talking to a wall. I am at my wit's end. He insists her potty problems are either her hips or that she just can't hold it anymore. But I don't believe that at all. I think she is just very angry and trying to tell him that she is upset because he doesn't spoil her anymore like he used to. I can see that he never trained her properly. She has terrible manners, especially when people are eating. It seems to me that she is no different than a kid who is angry because they are not getting their way anymore. But, she has no way to tell him she's mad except to go potty everywhere. This whole thing has gotten to be a very upsetting triangle. I feel like I know perfectly well what the problems are, but convincing my boyfriend of that is almost impossible. I can see he does not want to actually face the problems (especially that he made them) and then commit to solving them. That takes time and he is a very impatient person who wants to rush through everything he does. Opinions? Maybe I should crate train my boyfriend and not the dog?? LOL But seriously, are there books on these types of issues, specifically for older dogs? Would a trainer help? Is there any chance at all of solving the problem, or will her age prevent her from changing?
    • Gold Top Dog

    Hi and welcome.I do not judge you for disliking dogs.I hate baseball for the same reason[my dad gave all his time to it and none to his daughters].Dogs can become incontinent as they age and I have found a drug called Proin to help.It is not costly.Many here will tell you that housetraining problems are not born from spite.Poor training,failing health and improper diet are the usual culprits.What concerns me most is your boyfriend's abismal attitude.This dog adores him and he returns her loyalty with contempt.It should be a clear sign that his character is lacking and he one day may treat you the same way.Please try to put your own feelings about dogs an shepherds aside and help her.It doesn't seem she'll get help from your boyfriend. 

    Clean every spot she soils with an enzymatic cleaner.

    Keep her confined to a crate or small bathroom when you can't see her

    Put a leash on her and keep her tethered to you so she can't sneek off and potty

    Take her out and reward her when she goes outside

    Ask your vet about Proin for incontinance

    Feed her a quality Sr. food on a regular schedule

    Good luck,

    Tena

    • Gold Top Dog

    You've gotten good suggestions already.

    Years ago, a german shepherd tried to remove a chunk of my face.  I was afraid of them for years.  Who knew that one day I'd share my home with SIX of them?!

    I'm certainly not going to try to tell you that your feelings are wrong.....you feel what you feel.  I will say tho, that I suspect that your dads dogs were an excuse.  Whatever his reason he was more comfortable showing love to them than to his children.  That's all on your dad, tho.  Not the dogs.

    Since your boyfriend is falling down in HIS responsibilities to this poor dog, perhaps you could try to open your heart just a little to her and show her the love she needs?  I'm betting that if you did, she would become easier to deal with, and, as a bonus, the bf might be ashamed of his lack of caring and act like a responsible owner as well.

    • Gold Top Dog

    Dogs don't act out like this in anger, IMO.  They do feel stress and tension in a houshold and urinating and defecating inappropriately is not uncommon. This breed is known for their strong connection to their owner and your bf's abandonment/abuse is causing her stress to go through the roof. I understand that you don't like the dog or the breed and hate dogs in general.  

    There are a ton of books and articles available for every imagineable behavior problem.  Yes, a good behaviorist can help too.  The problem is that both people in the house need to understand that they have created this problem and both must help find a solution.  The dog is the only innocent party here.  Your feelings of hatred prevent you from doing anything with the dog.  Your bf seems to have washed his hands of her.  Contact GSD rescue in your area and pray they can find a foster home.  Senior dogs are hard to place but it does happen.  My heart breaks for this old girl to find herself at the end of her life in such a terrible situation.

    I'm really not at all sure what help you are looking for and I don't think that bashing you is helpful.  I just don't see a solution for this dog in this home with the current attitudes.  

    • Gold Top Dog

    Bashing you isn't the problem -- however, if you look back over your own post you'll probably see why that happens.

    bottom line -- SURE there is help for this dog.  She's reacting as a *dog* -- and as Jackie put it so simply, she IS the innocent party here.  But she'll pay the price.

    Having her live with your hatred and his indifference -- frankly that's just plain cruel.  You can *read* all the books on the shelf, but until someone CARES enough to try to work with her to resolve the problem nothing's going to change.

    But let me explain -- you're "projecting" anger on her.  Anger really isn't a dog thing -- an "angry" dog is the one raging out of control who goes for the throat to kill.  That's RARE.  Really *very* rare.  They may get frustrated -- and they really speak a different language than we do.  You are pretty accurately identifying how YOU would feel if it was you.

    If you want to honestly understand why she reacts as she does you'll have to learn to 'speak dog'.  It's not a human language -- they really do "see" things differently and sometimes it would be easy to ASSUME that they must feel this way or that.  But generally they follow a pretty predictable pattern. 

    One book I WILL suggest to you is Dr. STanley Coren's "How to Speak Dog" -- it's not a small book, but it will tell you pretty clearly what may be motivating her more accurately.   It may make the difference of explaining to you how she thinks more clearly.  It will also teach you how to 'read' her body language better so you know what she's really 'saying' when she does something.

    So ... to 'take the high road' here -- will likely involve you making the huge sacrifice to overcome your dislike and try to help her.  Like Glenda said -- you may go from "hate" to "love in pretty short order because it's my bet this girl is SO lonely and SO hurting that she may become your best friend for darned little love.  When you want privacy sure ... crate her.  But don't just push her in and lock the door.  Give her dinner in there, or give her a big marrow bone to chew on or a bunch of other things. 

    Realize your Dad's failings were your Dad's.  Not THIS dog's.  Not a breed ... and certainly not THIS unique being. 

    Honestly, even to find a home for her will take some compassion.  And no one is going to hate *you* for doing that.  Your boyfriend, on the other hand, is being a jerk.  If she's HIS dog, she's HIS responsibility -- she has given HIM the best years of her life faithfully and suddenly she's not the right species any more to get his attention???  She's old -- trust me, she doesn't NEED a lot of attention. 

    Aside from old age incontinence or it being difficult to move I have another question.  Does anyone go walk her or let her out BEFORE you shove her in the crate??  In other words -- be fair.  If you two are headed in to get physical, take her out FIRST.  Set her up in her crate to **be happy** -- give her dinner, or give her something to occupy her for a bit.

    I think you have **tried** to figure this dog out -- and honestly, that tells ME you probably are more than a bit sensitive to her even despite your conflicted feelings.  But you don't have the right factual information to get clear answers (you only get 'angry' answers which will make you come to the wrong conclusions). 

     Dogs really don't exact retribution -- and they don't get "angry" -- but they CAN get easily confused.  If you say "Stay THERE" and point to a spot and she stays THERE and then loses bladder control (cos she hears something and gets scared/agitated or just just can't wait any more) and she loses bladder control -- it's not cos she's 'mad' -- it's because she lost control.

    Now -- she might be trying to say "He's mine!" -- and sometimes dogs will urinate or defacate on something they want to 'claim' -- but that's claiming, not anger.  When you then point to the mess (which to HER is her "mark" -- it's something very specific which to her identifies this as 'hers' and her property and clearly says ME in her mind) and say "BAD DOG!!!" what you've really told her is 'I don't like YOU!!!" -- not that you don't like where she chose to elminate.  She thinks SHE's been clear, you think YOU have been clear and neither one of you 'get it'!

    Does that make sense?  Both of you walk away more frustrated. 

    It could be aggravated by the fact that she's pretty immobile and hurts a lot -- that will aggravate everything.

    faerieosity
    She does have bad hips now. She no longer can run and play. Sometimes she can barely stand up. We have taken her to the vet. She does not have a UTI. My boyfriend resents taking her to the vet, and he resents spending the money on her. I have told him numerous times that he needs to do one of three things: either put her to sleep or give her away to someone who will care for her properly in her elder years, or work with a dog trainer to get her behavior under control. Of course, he will hear of none of those options. Talking to him about this issue is like talking to a wall. I am at my wit's end

     

    What DOES he want to do? 

    As I said -- it's your boyfriend who honestly is the jerk here -- you have your own baggage (which he probably knew when he asked you to move in?? or you decided to cohabit anyway) cos she was his responsibility probably before you entered the picture.  She's given HIM the best years of her life.  She loves him no matter what (even tho he doesn't care -- she still thinks the sun rises and sets in him I bet?)

    But he needs to have some patience --

    Again, I'm not trying to be ratty but please understand that how you two deal with THIS is indicative of how you will deal with ANY problem in life. 

    I'm really not being ratty -- honestly what this boils down to is you can 'get rid of' the dog because it's inconvenient and your "life is different" etc ... but guess what?  If you two want a future together how are you going to resolve future problems?  What happens when one of your parents becomes old and incontinent ... trust me, it's not fun.  It can destroy a marriage when "mom" or "dad" moves in (or even if you have to visit them daily or take turns caring for them with other siblings). 

    My point is this -- if you two are going to have a future with each other then somehow you need to learn to resolve difficult problems like this very thing -- someone has to care *enough* to do what it takes to help her.  To realize that for each of your *actions* (like shutting her out because she's inconvenient when you want to be amorous -- and then hating her for having an opinion -- if she's claiming him and her 'territory' -- about what you've done??) there is going to be repercussions.  That, flatly, is life. 

    He hasn't trained her so he has wound up with a pretty unpleasant dog in her old age.  THAT is a mistake.  It's a mistake that was made years ago.  It's one that could be rectified IF he wanted to.

    Cleaning up a mess like this isn't easy.  There are solutions to all these problems BUT they can only be arrived at if someone decides to care enough to tackle them.

    Just 'reading' isn't going to make changes.  Is he adult enough TO do right by her?  What if this was one of YOUR parents??  Who was sick, infirrm or needed help?  No don't say "That's different" -- no, honestly it's not.  If you look thru the archives here MANY of us have parents who live in or that we've had to take care of and it gets HARDER not easier than with a pet.  But if someone can't -- while they are YOUNG and vigorous and have fewer responsbilities than they ultimately will  do the right and compassionate thing, then honestly later on they won't either.

    The folks on this board vary in age, financial situation, professional status, etc. - but we all love our dogs.  But we all have 'real lives' -- and we see what happens when one person goes thru a tough time -- and the spouse who can't suck it up and deal with something hard when it's a dog, or a neighbor, or a parent ... they won't/can't suck it up when it's a child either.  Nor ... when the other spouse has a health problem or loses a job. 

    It's like I said above -- as we 'grow' in this life we have to deal with the problems that come to us.  Refusing to deal with a problem?  That's no solution at all -- it just increases the anger and resentment and problems and frustation (both your reactions and the dogs)

    so honestly -- look at this as training for life.  If you want to ask specific questions and get help on specific things we'll be glad to help you ... many of us can even tell *you* how to work on your own fear and reluctance to bond with her.  But we can't change HIM. 

    I respect you highly for posting and TRYING to find a solution.  It tells me you are a caring person and you'd like to find resolution.  That's a lot to work with, to be honest.  If you go across from our names to the "Contact" button it will give you various choices - one of which is email.  If you want to email me, I'm more than willing to help you work on various issues.  But someone has to be willing to DO something.  And it's probably gotta start with him. 

    There are even things you can do to make her arthritis less painful ... not expensive things either.  but -- they DO take time and effort.  Holler if I can help.  And good luck -- you'll need it.

    • Gold Top Dog
    I don't say this lightly, especially considering the dogs age:

    please do yoursleves all a favor, contact your local german shepherd rescue, or if they are full, contact another no kill rescue, and give this dog over to people who will allow it to live out its remaining years in a less stressful, more caring environment.

    There is zero hope to change your situation becuase 1) the humans resent spending the money, 2) the humans resent spending th time, and 3) the humans don't like the dog to begin with.

    Please give this dog up.

    • Gold Top Dog

     What a terrible way to spend your golden years. I'm with Jewlieee, Give this dog up.

    • Gold Top Dog

    I agree, this dog needs to be rehomed. Poor old girl. Get her into a GSD rescue ASAP. If anyone really loved the dog I'd also suggest working with her the best you can. You can't hide your emotions from a dog. They literally smell changes in pheremones, our body language gives us away, etc. She KNOWS you don't like her. She knows he doesn't like her either. Do the right thing, get her to a home where someone will.

    • Gold Top Dog

     I'm going to go out on a limb and say that you do care, or you wouldn't be searching the internet for help. You wouldn't have continued to search for help after the first place gave you heck about it. I think you got some pretty good suggestions from 4HAND. Is she doing it in front of you while you watch? I will assume no, she is not. So, if that is the case, either keep her where you can see her, or keep her confined. If there is a certain area she goes in, block her from that area. We have a baby gate blocking our basement because two of the dogs will pee and poop in the basement. Only my dog is allowed in the basement. Baby gates can be had for a few dollars, and they can keep the dog from getting to the bad areas.

    If you can't convince your boyfriend to take her to the vet and make sure this isn't medical, in that case, please do try to get this dog placed into rescue.  Whenever there is a training issue, you should always rule out a medical problem as a cause. You may get nothing out of training if the issue you have is something medical, and she has no control over what she is doing.

    • Gold Top Dog

     In a thirteen year old GSD with mobility problems, I'm guessing that she may be incontinent when she sleeps, because her muscles may be atrophied due to age.  That's a medical problem.  I just lost my hound yesterday to cancer, and I can honestly say that I consider him lucky compared to this poor dog who is unloved just for being old.  I hope you don't marry this guy - imagine how he might treat a child or a grandparent if somehow they don't turn out to be easy to care for...put the poor girl to sleep or take care of her the way she deserves.

    Angry 

    • Gold Top Dog

    Her situation truly breaks my heart.  She is in her golden years and deserves only love, affection and nourishment both physically and emotionally. 

    Good for you in trying to reach out here to find resolution for this old girl.  It sounds like you do know what the problems are.  And the training required is for the humans.

    Our elders don't require much on a daily basis...all they want is love, 2 healthy meals, fresh water and attention.  They need a nice safe place to call their own, either a crate or a bed; access to grass and some belly rubs.

    I think of my own elder and cannot even fathom him in your girls situation.  I would imagine that changing your boyfriends behavior will be difficult if not impossible.  There are things that CAN be done about these issues, but it all depends on the humans in the house.  Yes, a trainer could help you, a vet check is necessary.  But, it will require time and loving effort.

    I pray that there is a foster home that can take her out of this situation and allow her to live the rest of her life in peace and love. 

    • Gold Top Dog

    It's going to be difficult to place a senior GSD with bad hips, mobility problems, and incontinence.  Young, active, healthy GSDs go unwanted and unadopted every day.  GSD bond very strongly generally to one person and it takes a while to really develop a bond, many of them become even more stressed in rescue or being rehomed b/c of having to change environments and owners again and again.  I just don't see it being easy to turn the dog over to a rescue at this point and quality of life should always be considered.  It may be best for everyone to let her go to the Bridge.  No matter what happens it seems the dog gets the short straw every time.  Sad

    I can count on one hand the number of dog breeds I can tolerate owning so I don't expect everyone to love or even tolerate my breed, but FWIW I was also bit in the face by a GSD as a kid.