How do I get Apollo...

    • Gold Top Dog

    How do I get Apollo...

    ...to come when called when my back is toward him? Tonight we did some simple c/t practice just for fun to kill time until dinner ( mainly sit, down, stay, roll over, paw, other paw, etc). I noticed that if I put my back to Apollo and recall him (and he has a stellar recall when I'm looking at him) he won't come....he won't budge. Ex: I put Apollo in a "sit/stay" 3-ft from me, turned my back to him, and recalled him. He whined (and just got louder the longer I waited for him to come), but he didn't move, not even and inch. So, I put the long line on him and did the same exercise except I reeled him and c/t, but he was very hesitant to come when he was behind me. Is this weird or what! I'm planning on doing more practice with him to work on this because I think it's an odd behavior. Any ideas/opinions on this?
    • Gold Top Dog

    I'd make some silly noise or clap my hands, while watching from the corner of my eye.   The second he makes a move (even just a toe twitch) toward you, praise him like there's no tomorrow. 

    He's waiting for that eye contact and you can fade it out once he understands the concept.  I put my dogs in a sit, stay in one room and go into another room and call them.   I'll have to see if turning my back on them while in the same room makes any difference to them.

    edit to add that it made no difference to my dogs if my back was turned. 

    • Gold Top Dog

     It's that silly generalizing thing that they do. He thinks that your back is a signal to stay. And he's doing a GOOD job of staying!!! LOL

     

    I'd do what Jackie said. I might squat, or clap, or kiss kiss at him, depending on what makes him silly. 

    • Gold Top Dog

    My first thought was to keep doing practice recalls, starting with you facing him, and slowly turn a little to the side everytime you call him. Keep turning a little each time until you have your back to him.

     

    • Gold Top Dog

    Another way would be to start out by standing sideways to then calling him, eventually working your way to turning your back on him.

    • Gold Top Dog

     Videotape yourself practicing recalls. There's something in your body language that's helping to release him.

    Figure that out and you've got it made. Then you can start recalling at angles Smile

    • Gold Top Dog

     It's really not that weird when you consider dogs' lack of ability to generalize well, and their reliance on body language cues.  You may accidentally have been moving your body a certain way during recalls, and he is relying on that, when you think he's been relying on your voice.  Or, it may be that turning away is just too "different looking" and is confusing him.  Try shaping the new recall by doing successive repetitions of your original recall (provided he is fluent in that) by gradually turning your body little by little on successive approximations of the final behavior you want, which is for him to return when you call even when the "picture" is different.

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    • Gold Top Dog

    spiritdogs
    by gradually turning your body little by little on successive approximations of the final behavior you want, which is for him to return when you call even when the "picture" is different.

    I was going to suggest this, too.  Turn your body so that you're a quarter turn (as opposed to back facing him) to start out with. 

    Meanwhile, I wonder when you call him for a recall- have you put him in a sit-stay, or are you clear that you just use SIT, then walk away?  I have a number of people who have trained their dog to sit, then stay, then they walk away from the dog and command a recall.  I think that's unfair to call a dog out of a stay.  "Stay" to me means, stay where you are until I return.  "Sit" means sit until I tell you to do something different (like down, or come, or stand)

    • Gold Top Dog
    miranadobe

    Meanwhile, I wonder when you call him for a recall- have you put him in a sit-stay, or are you clear that you just use SIT, then walk away?  I have a number of people who have trained their dog to sit, then stay, then they walk away from the dog and command a recall.  I think that's unfair to call a dog out of a stay.  "Stay" to me means, stay where you are until I return.  "Sit" means sit until I tell you to do something different (like down, or come, or stand)

    I did put him in a "sit/stay" not just a "sit"! Didn't even think this might be confusing him!!!
    • Gold Top Dog

    There's a bonus exercise in APDT level 1 called "Call to Heel" that reminds me of what you're describing.  I taught Honor to recall to heel by using her "Touch" command.  When originally teaching it, I would walk away, call her to "Touch" and let her fully touch my hand when she arrived at heel.  (You're not allowed to touch your dog in rally).  Once she had the idea, I eventually phased out the duration of my hand down in the heel-touch position and changed it to a simple downward/back motion with my hand. 

    And what Paige said about stays vs sits is very true.  Nike was very confused for a while until I realized that this exact thing was confusing him. 

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    • Gold Top Dog

    BlackLabbie
    miranadobe

    Meanwhile, I wonder when you call him for a recall- have you put him in a sit-stay, or are you clear that you just use SIT, then walk away?  I have a number of people who have trained their dog to sit, then stay, then they walk away from the dog and command a recall.  I think that's unfair to call a dog out of a stay.  "Stay" to me means, stay where you are until I return.  "Sit" means sit until I tell you to do something different (like down, or come, or stand)

    I did put him in a "sit/stay" not just a "sit"! Didn't even think this might be confusing him!!!

    A LOT of people do this.  You are not alone.  Particularly where your body language (position) is different, it can add to the confusion.  I'd leave it at SIT and as you step off (right foot, as opposed to left foot, since dogs tend to follow the leg closest to them) to walk away from him, you can consider a "reminder" SIT command. (yes, yes I know "two commands", but you're still teaching and you can fade it away once he understands that sit means sit until you say otherwise.)  You can also try stepping off at an angle and calling him to you, then rotate around behind him (so that it's essentially his back to you, as opposed to your back to him)- even more options for ya to to practice your recalls and that COME means "find the front of me, where ever it is, and come sit in front of me".
    • Gold Top Dog

    miranadobe

    spiritdogs
    by gradually turning your body little by little on successive approximations of the final behavior you want, which is for him to return when you call even when the "picture" is different.

    I was going to suggest this, too.  Turn your body so that you're a quarter turn (as opposed to back facing him) to start out with. 

    Meanwhile, I wonder when you call him for a recall- have you put him in a sit-stay, or are you clear that you just use SIT, then walk away?  I have a number of people who have trained their dog to sit, then stay, then they walk away from the dog and command a recall.  I think that's unfair to call a dog out of a stay.  "Stay" to me means, stay where you are until I return.  "Sit" means sit until I tell you to do something different (like down, or come, or stand)

     

    This is common among traditional AKC obedience trainers, i.e. having the stay mean stay till I get back.  And, I must admit, that when I first train stay, that is what it means.  However, I do tend to progress to being able to cue the dog to go from sit/stay to down, or sit/stay to come, or even sit/stay to spin.  I want my dog to think that stay means hold that position until I cue another behavior.  Just a matter of preference I think, so long as the dog is adequately proofed, but one can see how a dog in the early stages of training could assume that it isn't ok to move from the stay to do the recall.

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    • Gold Top Dog

    spiritdogs
    I do tend to progress to being able to cue the dog to go from sit/stay to down, or sit/stay to come, or even sit/stay to spin.  I want my dog to think that stay means hold that position until I cue another behavior. 

    I'm curious, why doesn't the first stationary command (sit or down or whatever) hold until you cue the next behavior (or release w/your cue word like "OK";)?  What is the function of adding "stay" that is different than just "sit" or "down" or "stand"?
    • Gold Top Dog

    The stationary cue "stay" ie what holds my dog until the next behavior.  That's the point - if a dog understands and is fluent in the fact that stay means hold your position, you can use it any time you want the dog to maintain position, and you don't have to build each cue separately to hold the dog, you just cue to the position you want and then cue him to hold it with "stay".    I've never told my dog to "stay" while she's "saying prayers" but my guess is that she will do so if I add the "stay" cue while she is in the middle of doing that behavior, even though I haven't trained that much duration into the prayer cue itself.  It isn't the word that's important, it's the behavior!  If I wanted to change and do it your way tomorrow, all I need to do is reinforce duration on each of the stationary cues where I would like it to occur.  Your way is how most traditional obedience instructors want their dogs to react.  I couldn't care less if I ask my dog to sit or lie down for a moment while we are doing barn chores and she chooses to get up to go get a drink, or chew on a blade of grass.  However, if I needed precision for obedience competition, I might elect to add sufficient duration and distraction to reinforce what she would need to do for that particular discipline.  I think you can get way too wrapped up in having to do things a certain way, and you can change behavior sooooo easily if you have an operant dog.  My dog has three separate cues that all mean "stop, turn and look at me" - I trained them so that she could demo in class that dogs can learn discrete cues for the same behavior, thus, it isn't the word that's important, it's "does the dog do what has been reinforced through training." 


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    • Gold Top Dog

    spiritdogs
    I couldn't care less if I ask my dog to sit or lie down for a moment while we are doing barn chores and she chooses to get up to go get a drink, or chew on a blade of grass.  However, if I needed precision for obedience competition, I might elect to add sufficient duration and distraction to reinforce what she would need to do for that particular discipline. 

    OK, that makes sense then.  I think it's because I expect a dog to hold the position for more than a moment, and not have the dog suggesting something else of its own initiative.  If I put him in a sit, I expect him to sit.  If I think it's ok for him to wander to get a drink or chew some grass, then I release him (or wouldn't put him in the sit in the first place). I think what I understand from your training is you enjoy the dog suggesting the next behavior, or finding the next "solution", etc, ie, "thinking for itself".  We just have a difference of perspective and objective in training.