Do Dogs Intentionally Use Their Body Language to Communicate?

    • Gold Top Dog

    spiritdogs

    Liesje

    espencer

    I fail to see why a question like this should be asked in the 21st century. I would think these type of questions would be interesting to ask back in the 19th or 18th century

     

    Ditto.  For me, intelligence and some form of language/communication go hand in hand.  Just because *we* cannot correctly interpret all the caveats of canine communication does not mean it's not there or any less complex than our own.

     

    I agree, and I think it's premature to say just how much intention dogs possess, when we are so clumsy at their language in the first place.  I wish that LCT would stop using the "we" to describe what he thinks people erroneously attribute to dogs.  I assure him, and everyone, that I am not anthropomorphizing or putting my own human interpretations on anything.  What I am doing is observing a lot of dog behavior on a daily basis, and drawing some conclusions or correlations from what I see.  No different for me to make anecdotal statements than for anyone else to do so.  Interestingly, Sioux has been invited back for more testing at the Canine Cognition Lab.  If I can remember, I'll try to ask if they have any input on this discussion based on their current work.

     

    Hi.

    Thanks for the input.

    As to whether this discussion belongs in the 21st Century, I would have to say that, from my perception at least, I seem to be one of only a handful of people exploring canine cognition from the perspective of 21st Century, rather than 20th or 19th Century science. In my view, most dog trainers operate on outdated information coming originally from the 1930s and '40s (i.e., from B. F. Skinner or Konrad Lorenz). Meanwhile I've been working on integrating concepts from systems dynamics, molecular evolution, emergence theory, quantum mechanics, fluid dynamics, chaos theory, etc, etc. The only "backwards" part of my philosophy is the Freudian angle. Yet in my readings of Freud he's actually more up-to-date than ever*, primarily because his psychology is based on the laws of thermodynamics. Plus he was ahead of his time in many ways. (He predicted the discovery of endorphins, dopamine, opiate receptors, etc., back in the 1920s, if not earlier.)

    I have to disagree with the idea that dogs are "intelligent," or that intelligence and communication go hand in hand. Intelligence implies intellect, mental thought processes, etc. It's hard to figure how taking time to think things through before acting would benefit animals in any way. In the wild, a logical animal is a dead one. Meanwhile, pattern recognition, which is an evolutionary pre-cursor to linear, logical thought, is a very important part of an animal's survival skills; it's no small thing either since chess masters use pattern recognition, not logic, to win matches. So it seems logical to me to say that it's more advantageous for animals to "feel things out" than think things through.

    On the other hand, if we're talking about social intelligence and emotional expressiveness in dogs, I'm totally on board. What I'm trying to do, in my own small way, is find the dividing line between a dog's emotional vs. intellectual capacities.

    SpiritDogs, when I use the word "we" to describe how humans automatically anthropomorphize animals I'm not imputing anything about any one person, just stating a biological and psychological fact: humans are hard-wired to explain nature through the lens of human thought**. So while I value everyone's input on these issues, I apologize if I sometimes apply my own internal filters on anything that I think resonates with or comes from that natural impulse. It's for this reason (among others) that I've made pdf files available on my website of two scientific papers, Rational Animals? (which is an overview of a lengthy book on the subject), and "Darwin's Mistake," written by three of what I think are the best researchers into comparative cognition, Derek Penn, Keith Holyoake, and Dan Povinelli. (By the way, while I highly recommend reading these files, I don't actually agree with everything in them; I just think they just give a solid grounding in the subject matter.)

    Thanks again, everyone, for the input,

    LCK

    *From a new paper out of Oxford University: "Freudian concepts may have a real neurobiological substrates [that] could be usefully revisited in the context of modern neuroscience."

    **From an article written by Marc Bekoff for PsychologyToday.com: Evidence is ... surfacing that anthropomorphism may be a hard-wired mode for conceptualizing the world in general, not just other animals. Recent research by Andrea Heberlein and Ralph Adolphs shows that a part of the brain called the amygdala is used when we impart intention and emotions to inanimate objects or events, such as when we talk about "angry" weather patterns or "battling" waves. Heberlein and Adolph studied a patient called SM with damage to the amygdala and discovered that SM described a film of animated shapes in entirely asocial and geometric terms though SM had normal visual perception. Their research suggests that the "human capacity for anthropomorphizing draws on some of the same neural systems as do basic emotional responses." My reading of this research and my own experience with a wide variety of animals is that "We feel, therefore we anthropomorphize." And we’re programmed to see humanlike mentality in events where it cannot possibly be involved.

    • Gold Top Dog
    Well, I don't think that the people at Harvard are pursuing their research by looking backward.  I think they are firmly planted in this century.  I would agree with you that humans may be hardwired to regard others from their own point of view, and I think dogs are probably hardwired to do the same:-)  No wonder there is a disconnect in the way we communicate with one another...  I think that some Freudian ideas are valid, and quite a few are not.  Just as with any other theorist or investigator, hypotheses are proven and dis-proven over time.  I think that just as we humans have varying degrees of cognitive ability, dogs exist on a continuum as well, and while we may eventually find out that no dogs understand some things, we may also find that some dogs can.  Evolution at work, perhaps.
    • Gold Top Dog

    I'm curious to hear how you're integrating quantum mechanics into your study of canine cognition.

    • Gold Top Dog

    Lee Charles Kelley

    I have to disagree with the idea that dogs are "intelligent," or that intelligence and communication go hand in hand. Intelligence implies intellect, mental thought processes, etc. It's hard to figure how taking time to think things through before acting would benefit animals in any way. In the wild, a logical animal is a dead one. Meanwhile, pattern recognition, which is an evolutionary pre-cursor to linear, logical thought, is a very important part of an animal's survival skills; it's no small thing either since chess masters use pattern recognition, not logic, to win matches. So it seems logical to me to say that it's more advantageous for animals to "feel things out" than think things through.

     

     

    I disagree with this.  While I do agree that raw instinct has an important place in survival, intellect does as well.  As far as predators, especially social predators go, it takes a certain amount of reasoning ability to cooperatively hunt, rear young, drive off threats, etc.  A "higher" brain is not needed for an animal to know how to flee from a predator--my goldfish knows how to do that.

     I have worked closely with horses since I was 9, have owned 2 and worked in a stable for 10 years.  Now, horses are purely a prey animal, but I have most definitely seen them reason beyond "unfamilar object/sound/sight+fear response" mode.  Yes, there are horses that do react this way, but there are others who seem predisposed to "think it through."  

    As far as whether dogs intentionally use body language to communicate....well, I suppose it depends on what you mean by "intention."  I do know that while the ability seems to be innate, some are better at it than others.  Jack is definitely better than Sally at doggy body language.  i have seen Jack communicate with other dogs in potentially threatening situations in a way that makes it appear as though he is "choosing his words" in such a way to avoid a confrontation.  Come to think of it, don't know if WE intentionally use language to communicate.  It's just an ability that we are born with that is honed by learning in early childhood.  I was 8 or 9 months when I started stringing words together.  I'm sure I never consciously decided I needs to started talking, my brain was wired for it and the adults around me all talked.

    • Gold Top Dog

    sillysally

    While I do agree that raw instinct has an important place in survival, intellect does as well.  As far as predators, especially social predators go, it takes a certain amount of reasoning ability to cooperatively hunt, rear young, drive off threats, etc. 

    Come to think of it, don't know if WE intentionally use language to communicate.  It's just an ability that we are born with that is honed by learning in early childhood.  I was 8 or 9 months when I started stringing words together.  I'm sure I never consciously decided I needs to started talking, my brain was wired for it and the adults around me all talked.

     

    Hi, Sillysally,

    Thanks for your feedback. You bring up some interesting points.

    I wonder what kinds of reasoning ability you think it takes to hunt cooperatively, rear one's young, etc.? I would agree that these behaviors require choices, but that those choices are based on feeling things out rather than "thinking things through."

    As for your point about whether humans intentionally use language to communicate, it's a good one. Much of human communication probably is done unconsciously. However, I would argue that it takes intent to sit at your computer, think about what points you want to make, and then type them into the message field, etc. Dogs may respond to our words, but does that automatically mean they "understand" them (i.e., that they're capable of interpreting those words as symbols that represent both physical things as well as mental concepts)?

    LCK

    • Gold Top Dog

    Lee Charles Kelley

    sillysally

    While I do agree that raw instinct has an important place in survival, intellect does as well.  As far as predators, especially social predators go, it takes a certain amount of reasoning ability to cooperatively hunt, rear young, drive off threats, etc. 

    Come to think of it, don't know if WE intentionally use language to communicate.  It's just an ability that we are born with that is honed by learning in early childhood.  I was 8 or 9 months when I started stringing words together.  I'm sure I never consciously decided I needs to started talking, my brain was wired for it and the adults around me all talked.

     

    Hi, Sillysally,

    Thanks for your feedback. You bring up some interesting points.

    I wonder what kinds of reasoning ability you think it takes to hunt cooperatively, rear one's young, etc.? I would agree that these behaviors require choices, but that those choices are based on feeling things out rather than "thinking things through."

    As for your point about whether humans intentionally use language to communicate, it's a good one. Much of human communication probably is done unconsciously. However, I would argue that it takes intent to sit at your computer, think about what points you want to make, and then type them into the message field, etc. Dogs may respond to our words, but does that automatically mean they "understand" them (i.e., that they're capable of interpreting those words as symbols that represent both physical things as well as mental concepts)?

    LCK

     

     

    But see, I don't know if you can totally separate "feeling things through" from "thinking things" through.  Also, just feeling and reacting isn't always enough to insure survival, because sometimes those reactions are wrong and will get you dead.  Example:  I've owned 2 horses is my life.Both have had their good and bad points, but one area that they really differed in was reaction to being stuck.  Being stuck is, for a prey animal like a horse, a life or death situation in the wild--you escape or you die.  The mare would nearly always react to being stuck somewhere/on something unexpectedly with sheer panic.  She would freak and struggle until something broke and she was freed, and there was little you could do about it other than to pray that she didn't break herself.  The gelding, however, was different.  he might get upset at first, but literally all you had to do was speak to him and when he heard you and realized you were coming to his aid he would stop panicking and be still, waiting for you to free him.  If it had just happened once I would have chalked it up to a coincidence, but it happened several times, all with the same result--initial freaking out, followed by calm once he was assured help is on the way.  This response very literally saved him from maiming himself at least once.  IMHO, there was more than just "feeling" going on there, because as a horse his "feeling" should be telling him "YOU'RE STUCK GET OUT NOW NOW NOW!!!!" but he instead made the choice to bring himself back from the panic and allow me to free him.  I'm no behaviorist, but IMHO, there was some actual thought going on there.

    As for human communication--I think there is intent involved in the CONTENT of the communication, but in the communication itself?  Not really.  I think that social beings just.....communicate--it's what we do.  I think that humans are just hard-wired for it--verbal, body language, written, etc.  We certainly communicate with a specific intent in mind (persuade, socialize, etc) but I don't think thew act of communication itself requires a whole lot intent.  Heck, we communicate even when we are making it a point NOT to communicate--lol

    • Gold Top Dog

    Lee Charles Kelley

    I have to disagree with the idea that dogs are "intelligent," or that intelligence and communication go hand in hand. Intelligence implies intellect, mental thought processes, etc. It's hard to figure how taking time to think things through before acting would benefit animals in any way. In the wild, a logical animal is a dead one. Meanwhile, pattern recognition, which is an evolutionary pre-cursor to linear, logical thought, is a very important part of an animal's survival skills; it's no small thing either since chess masters use pattern recognition, not logic, to win matches. So it seems logical to me to say that it's more advantageous for animals to "feel things out" than think things through.

    On the other hand, if we're talking about social intelligence and emotional expressiveness in dogs, I'm totally on board. What I'm trying to do, in my own small way, is find the dividing line between a dog's emotional vs. intellectual capacities.

     

    Well, it sounds like you still have to learn a lot about dogs then, it actually is the opposite. In the wild, an animal that only goes with "feeling things out" was dead yesterday. An animal that takes decisions based on feelings is food for other animals, an animal that bases his decisions on mental thought processes gets to eat every day. But dont take from me to say that dogs are intelligent and have mental thought processes, here are 4 examples:

    Video number 1: African Wild dogs hunting, check out their plan to a successful catch. If you tell me that some of them just "felt" to split up and their emotions told them to go one to the right, one to the left, to guide the impalas to the flanks or to cut the corner to make the persecution angle smaller then you are just lying to yourself. Their brains tell them what to do, not their feelings. They simply cant apply pattern recognition here (unless you consider running as the only one).

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c6swfVakcf4

    Video number 2: Donnie the doberman, i dont need to say anything, the video speaks for itself. Check what he did when his owner hugged him for the first time.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bBz0wFeVfzA

    Video number 3: Scientific tests regarding dog intelligence, some of them done to chimpanzees as well (guess who wins). This video shows clearly that intelligence and communication go hand in hand.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OJu2Qkbxes0

    Video number 4: Rico, the border collie, this video is in French but you can still pick up some of the words. Just to show you that dogs actually have mental thought processes, Rico knows the name of more than 100 objects, once he is told the name of an object he does not know he goes around and by the process of elimination he picks the only object that has not seen before. After that, another process of elimination test where clearly if the dog applies pattern recognition then he would go home hungry. This test has nothing linear about it.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SyugyYYzkr8

    If you want to still make your point valid you will have to refute 4 examples (not just one)



    • Gold Top Dog

    I still just want to know about how quantum physics can be factored into canine cognition (or canine non-cognition, as the case can apparently be argued).

    • Gold Top Dog
    espencer

    you still have to learn a lot about dogs ... it actually is the opposite. In the wild, an animal that only goes with "feeling things out" was dead yesterday. An animal that takes decisions based on feelings is food for other animals, an animal that bases his decisions on mental thought processes gets to eat every day. But dont take from me to say that dogs are intelligent and have mental thought processes, here are 4 examples:

     

    Hi, Espencer,

    Thanks for the feedback. I enjoyed looking at the videos.

    In re your first point: when I spoke of "feeling things out" I was referring to a quick, down-and-dirty (i.e., cognitively simple) way of processing information. I've used that phrase in other places to denote the difference between what we automatically think we see when there's a gap in the action, i.e., a lull between a stimulus and a dog's response: we automatically impute a linear thought process into that gap, when in fact the lull is more likely to be caused by a dog making a choice based on emotion and pattern recognition than rational thought. 

    I like this description of the power and speed of pattern recognition (from a paper on social science):

    "The long term memory used in pattern recognition ... is effectively unlimited in capacity and works very quickly -- on the order of seconds [I would say "nano-seconds" -LCK] -- even when solving series of complex associative recall problems across thousands of potential matches.

    "The human brain evolved with a strong bias towards pattern recognition rather than deductive reasoning. The biological world ... is exceedingly complex and arbitrary. It is a world of individuals constructed from complex feature vectors made of DNA, with billions of components, and selected solely by the ability of their ancestors to reproduce ... Such a world cannot be described deductively in any practical sense, but because it is very repetitive, pattern recognition is an effective information-processing strategy. Since critical decisions must be made in real time ... evolution will select for high recall speeds under noisy environmental conditions. It does not select for theorem proving...

    "This neural bias [for pattern recognition] would emerge early in the biological record, well before the development of primates, or mammals, or even vertebrates. Homo sapiens is endowed with sophisticated pattern recognition capabilities honed through eons of evolution, and it is unsurprising that this capacity is put to use in social behavior. Deductive reasoning, in contrast, is a comparatively recent development and is much more difficult. While we are very proud of deductive reasoning, it is not necessarily more useful ...

    "Anderson and Rosenfeld trace the pedigree of this idea to William James: As James points out [in Psychology (Briefer Course) (1890)] emphatically in several places, the brain is not constructed to think abstractly - it is constructed to ensure survival in the world. ... [The design principles are:] do as good a job as you can, cheaply, and with what you can obtain easily. If this means using ad hoc solutions, with less generality than one might like, so be it. We are living in one particular world, and we are built to work in it and with it. (Anderson and Rosenfeld 1988, 1)

    "Pattern recognition, unlike deduction, is easy."

    ("A New Kind of Social Science," Valerie M. Hudson, Brigham Young University, Philip A. Schrodt, University of Kansas, 2004) 

    I hope that clears up why I've said and why I think that pattern recognition is quicker and more adaptive than reason or rational thought.

    Now to the videos you posted links to: First of all, there is no evidence that the dogs (or wild dogs) in these clips are forming the intent to report information. At least I don't see it. The closest you might come would be in the video of the the cape hunting dogs. It's true that, esp. in the overhead shot, where every other dog peels off from the main path, it seems very much as if some behaviors would have to be based on some form of deliberate signaling going back and forth. However, ants exhibit similar behavioral patterns, and do so as part of a self-emergent system. One of the rules of emergence theory is "the dumber the parts, the smarter the system." I think it's also important to note that self-emergent systems depend heavily on both pattern recognition and instantaneous feedback mechanisms.

    A very simple explanation for their behavior, based on physics and emotion, is that the target deer, being a large animal, poses a danger to each individual member of the pack. That danger would ordinarily be felt, viscerally, as resistance registering within the body of each dog. However, since they're part of a pack, that feeling is diffused across the pack as a whole, so that each member only feels a much smaller portion of it.

    When the deer starts running, it becomes an attractor (a term taken from emergence theory). Each dog's levels of attraction (and whatever residual resistance is retained) to the deer will differ, otherwise they would  all take most direct course  and get in each others' way. So their movements automatically become synchronized around the deer-as-attractor, through their individuated levels of attraction and resistance. (If I were to draw this as a graphic video, you'd see fields of a kind of biological magnetic force around the deer and each dog's body; those fields would shift and fluctuate naturally depending on the changes in proximity to the prey, to each other, changes in the terrain, etc.)

    The rapidity at which this takes place (despite some of the slo-mo photography) would make it impossible for the dogs to be engaging in reason-based, conscious communication with one another.  (They may very well communicate with eye contact, but that kind of communication would have to be limited to an emotional, not a linear, thought-based form.)

    It's interesting that you've included the hunting behaviors of the African wild dogs, because in each of the 4 videos the answer to the puzzle can actually be traced back to the dog's hunting instincts, at least partially. For instance, if we take a step back, remove our automatic reflex to see human-like thought in each of the examples, we can see that pattern-recognition (at a very high level) is involved with how the Doberman arranges his toys (or prey objects), and with how the border collie "understands the names" of over 100 of his prey objects (I would say that for him they're not "names" but behavioral cues). Neither dog is forming the deliberate intent to report information to anyone, though. In fact, just off the top of my head, it seems to me that what they're exhibiting could reasonably be explained as a kind of low-level OCD-like behavior, a condition which each breed is susceptible to. (Nicholas Dodman says he and some others have found the gene that codes for OCD in blanket-sucking Dobermans; there's also a topographical connection to where both OCD and pattern recognition are processed in the brain, which suggests that the internal "reward" system which makes the act of detecting patterns feel good, may be part of the process that actually causes OCD in the first place, or at least that self-reinforces the behaviors.)

    I'm not saying that Donnie and Rico aren't amazing dogs. They are. But I still think their behaviors can be traced back to some aspect of the prey drive. Donnie's is particularly interesting because, as you noted, of the way he placed one toy with its arm around another. There is another explanation for that behavior, other than that Donnie was "reporting information" to his owner that he needed a hug. ("Ahhh...";) It's far more likely that he was expressing his emotions, and he was also quite probably retrieving his owner's unconscious emotions as well. I've already written an article on this phenomenon, in which I provide anecdotes about several dogs who seemed to have done just that:

    "Emotional GPS: How Dogs Find and Retrieve Our Unconscious Desires." 

    As for the video showing several studies with how dogs are genetically-designed to make eye contact with humans, follow our gaze, etc., there's also no evidence that the dogs are reporting information in any of these clips. Are the dogs "thinking?" I don't think so. The only situation where we might rightly apply thought is the one where the researcher puts down a treat, tells the dog not to get it, then closes her eyes. Once her eyes are closed, the dog takes a moment (to feel things out), then grabs the treat. What was his motivation? That she "couldn't see him?" -- which strongly implies a first level Theory of Mind? Or is there another, simpler explanation? (Emotional GPS again?)

    As I wrote in the first article in this series on canine communication, "There are three ways in which dogs are said to communicate with other dogs, as well as with human beings; through their body language, vocalizations, and direct eye contact." So far I've only dealt with body langauge. But eye contact (which will be the final installment) may be the most interesting topic of all.

    In another clip, the dog is told to go and beg one of three people for a treat. Two of the people have their eyes hidden. Does the dog go directly to the girl, whose eyes are clearly visible? No. It goes to the tallest person first, then the next tallest, then the shortest. Another thing that isn't pointed out by the narrator, is that in the first two cases the dog seems to be waiting for some kind of reaction or cue from the people with their eyes hidden. Is the dog thinking, "This person can't see me?" Or is it not getting the necessary feedback to complete the given task? (Remember, feedback mechanisms are an important component of self-emergent systems.)

    When dogs interact with us, or with other dogs, are they picking up information from reading signals from our eyes, our body language, and words and emotional tones of voice? Yes, of course. But I don't know why that has to automatically mean they're thinking thing through. 

    LCK 

    Another term for pattern recognition is "intuitive coherence judgments," which has been studied in humans, and is explained as follows:

    "We conceive of intuition as the ability to make above-chance judgments about properties of a stimulus on the basis of information that is activated in memory but not consciously retrieved. Intuition is thus not some special or even mysterious capacity, but is rather based on preexisting knowledge that may guide decisions and judgments without being accessible to conscious awareness." ("On the speed of intuition: Intuitive judgments of semantic coherence under different response deadlines," Annette Bolte, Braunschweig University of Technology, and Thomas Goschke, Dresden University of Technology, The Journal of Memory & Cognition, 2005, (7) 1248, 1255) 

    So you see, a lot of really cool stuff takes place on an unconscious level, even in humans.

     

    • Gold Top Dog

    Jupiter

    I still just want to know about how quantum physics can be factored into canine cognition (or canine non-cognition, as the case can apparently be argued).

     

    Hi, Jupiter,

    Thanks for the question. Sorry it took me so long to answer you.

    I'm not an expert on quantum physics, but Nick Herbert has said that "Bell's theorem could explain telepathy." If so, that would also explain a lot of things, such as how some dogs know when their owners are coming home, and a few more strange phenomena I plan to discuss in a future installment of my series on canine communication.

    I'm also interested in the Hameroff/Penrose work on ORCH OR, where consciousness is essentially described as a quantum wave collapse.

    In terms of how I've applied some of these ideas to my theories or hypotheses about canine cognition (they do have cognitive abilities, btw, just not conscious, linear-thought based abilities), I see a dog's mind habitating two distinct states, a group mood -- which could be compared to an undividuated wave-like state, where the dog feels emotionally connected to his owners and other dogs -- and a solo mood -- which could be compared to an individuated, particle-like state, where the dog no longer feels connected emotionally.

    I go into this a bit in one of my articles: "Tuning In to Your Dog's Emotions."

    Thanks again for the question,

    LCK

     

    • Gold Top Dog

    "I'm not an expert on quantum physics, but Nick Herbert has said that "Bell's theorem could explain telepathy."

    How do you feel about the scientists who think a phenomenon should be established as "real" before speculation about the mechanism behind the phenomenon is explored?

    I mean, should the scientific community

    1) start looking to quantum physics to explain extraterrestrial telepathy

    or...

    2) first establish that aliens are here, and communicating in a way that appears to be paranormal, before digging into how the ET telepathy "works"?

    Because what you're doing with dogs and quantum physics/telepathy, and being so pseudoscientific/"modern". seems a lot like example #1.

     

     

     

     

    • Gold Top Dog

    Lee Charles Kelley

    sillysally

    While I do agree that raw instinct has an important place in survival, intellect does as well.  As far as predators, especially social predators go, it takes a certain amount of reasoning ability to cooperatively hunt, rear young, drive off threats, etc. 

    Come to think of it, don't know if WE intentionally use language to communicate.  It's just an ability that we are born with that is honed by learning in early childhood.  I was 8 or 9 months when I started stringing words together.  I'm sure I never consciously decided I needs to started talking, my brain was wired for it and the adults around me all talked.

     

    Hi, Sillysally,

    Thanks for your feedback. You bring up some interesting points.

    I wonder what kinds of reasoning ability you think it takes to hunt cooperatively, rear one's young, etc.? I would agree that these behaviors require choices, but that those choices are based on feeling things out rather than "thinking things through."

    As for your point about whether humans intentionally use language to communicate, it's a good one. Much of human communication probably is done unconsciously. However, I would argue that it takes intent to sit at your computer, think about what points you want to make, and then type them into the message field, etc. Dogs may respond to our words, but does that automatically mean they "understand" them (i.e., that they're capable of interpreting those words as symbols that represent both physical things as well as mental concepts)?

    LCK

     

    I think we will live to see the day when science proves you wrong.  Even if pattern recognition is quicker and more adaptive than reason or rational thought, that does not mean that dogs are completely incapable of it.  

    Espencer, here's one case where I will defend you!  I believe that there are quite a few dogs that have the capacity to "fast map" too, but I'm not sure all dogs can.  http://library.ibp.ac.cn/html/cogsci/SCIENCE-2004-1682.pdf  That fits with what the research assistant at Harvard told me.  Some dogs do better on the tests than others.  When we attended the Patricia McConnell seminar Saturday, there was some discussion about emotion in dogs, intention, and what they know.  The jury is still out on how much, but from what Trish said, I think she is erring on the side of giving the dogs the benefit of the doubt, and not ruling out what could be significant capacity in some areas, based upon the limited research on that has been done thus far.  She actually put the call out to anyone who is considering a Ph.D. to try to hook up with a researcher and do more studies on the domestic dog.

    • Gold Top Dog
    Lee Charles Kelley

    Dogs may respond to our words, but does that automatically mean they "understand" them (i.e., that they're capable of interpreting those words as symbols that represent both physical things as well as mental concepts)?

    LCK

     

    spiritdogs

    I think we will live to see the day when science proves you wrong.  Even if pattern recognition is quicker and more adaptive than reason or rational thought, that does not mean that dogs are completely incapable of it.  

    Espencer, here's one case where I will defend you!  I believe that there are quite a few dogs that have the capacity to "fast map" too, but I'm not sure all dogs can. 

     

    Hi, SpiritDogs,

    Thanks for your response.

    I still think that it's inadvantageous for dogs to have the capacity to engage in internal mental thought processes. One of the risks of being able to have a "train of thought," for example, is the unfortunate ability of being able to also lose one's train of thought. Then there's the problem of becoming lost in thought. That's how we forget where we parked the car or can't find our keys. What possible use could being able to think, and therefore, become "lost in thought," be to dogs or wolves?

    Thanks also for the paper from the Max Planck Institute.

    Here are the salient portions: During speech acquisition, children form quick and rough hypotheses about the meaning of a new word after only a single exposure-a process dubbed "fast mapping."  Here we provide evidence that a border collie, Rico, is able to fast map. 

    And: our results strongly support the view that a seemingly complex linguistic skill previously described only in human children may be mediated by simpler cognitive building blocks that are also present in another species.

    For starters, Rico seems like an exceptional dog. Wittgenstein said, "If a lion could talk we would not understand him." But Daniel Dennett says, "If a lion could talk we would understand him just fine, but we would learn very little from him about ordinary lions."

    I have no problem with the idea that there are "simpler cognitive building blocks" present in dogs. Especially since one of those building blocks seems to be pattern recognition. What I do object to is the conclusion being jumped to that Rico is able to form a rough hypothesis "about the meaning" of a new word after only a single exposure (or fifty exposures). Making an emotional/visceral connection to a prey object through an auditory cue, while quite stunning in terms of its scale (at least 100 different objects, maybe more!) is not much different in type than a dog whose ears perk up when you say "ball" or "bone."

    How does an auditory cue magically transmute itself into hypothetical thinking?

    (BTW, I'll probably use the article from the folks at Max Planck in a future article of my own. So thanks again.)

    And while I agree with you that we may someday see dogs who actually are able to think conscious and rational thoughts, I also think that until we see some evidence that evolution is speeding up, species-wide, all we have for now are a few un-ordinary dogs. Rico may be a preview of what's to come, but for now he's the exception, not the rule.

    LCK

    • Gold Top Dog

    You can't have pattern recognition, or any other type of "recognition" without "thought". You also can't have "confusion" without thought, and even the stupidest dogs show signs of confusion at times.

    Whether or not dogs can be called "conscious" depends on how you want to define "consciousness" - a task notoriously difficult to do even with humans.

    Dogs troubleshoot, problem-solve, come up with clever methods of communicating, and remember things. You can re-define the word "thought" in ways that preclude calling these actions demonstrationsof thought, but for 99% of the population - we call it "thought", regardless of the less than Vulcan-like probable experience of our canine companions. (wouldn't it be just as easy to speculate that dogs are actually like emotionless, four legged and furry, brain-damaged Vulcans as it is to speculate that they're operating on pure emotion without any thought?)

     

    Regarding Rico, I've had two dogs before that were "genuises" when it came to associating human words with activities and objects. One was so good at it that he learned a lot of words just by association without being intentionally "taught". It was bizarre. The other dog was more like Rico in that she remembered the name if you told it to her.

    If "making a good guess" is that same thing as "having a hypothesis" then yes, Rico bringing back the "banana" when he'd never heard of a banana before (but his other choices were a ball, which he knew wasn't right, and a rope, which he also knew wasn't called "banana";) then yeah...the dog hypothesized in a very basic sort of way that 12 month old human babies do. And this is the sort of "hypothesizing" that dogs do all the time. How they experience guessing, or thinking, or "knowing" is anyone's guess, though. (and anyone who claims otherwise is a total quack. That's one reason I'm such a fan of Patricia McConnell; she cautious about over-interpreting what little evidence exists and is very intellectually honest about what is more or less "fact" vs her own speculation. Of course, she's also an actual scientist, and that's the way actual science is supposed to be.)

     

    • Gold Top Dog

    Jupiter
    a fan of Patricia McConnell; she cautious about over-interpreting what little evidence exists and is very intellectually honest about what is more or less "fact" vs her own speculation. Of course, she's also an actual scientist, and that's the way actual science is supposed to be.)

     

    I agree.  I don't think it will be possible to ever truly understand the workings of a dog's mind.  We barely understand the working of the human mind.