Dogs are Not Toys

I posted this on another thread, but I think it fits here. The trainer I took Scout to has this on her website.
 
Oh and don't worry it's NOT the same "awesome dog"..... uhhh, you know what I mean.
 
[linkhttp://www.awesomedogs.ca/articles-child-appropriate.htm]http://www.awesomedogs.ca/articles-child-appropriate.htm[/link]

I was taught a healthy respect for dogs from such a young age that I can't even remember how my mother did it. I think it involved some serious discussions of how dogs can hurt people, and how dogs have feelings just like people and I should treat them with as much respect as another person.

I learned a healthy respect for dogs and animals in general before I could even walk.  I have never thought of dogs or cats as pets, simply as companions. 
 
Having watched my nephew grow from infancy to toddlerhood in a house with a grouchy akita, was incredible.  It fostered within him a healthy respect for dogs and an understanding of canine body language as well.  And there was never a bite or an air snap or anything other than a growly warning from the akita.   

I don't understand why this is so difficult for people.

I was raised by two working parents who did not watch me like a hawk, and we always had multiple dogs, and when the dogs bit the children, the question was always:

What did you do to the dog?

Children of any age learn very quickly how to act around dogs when they are held responsible for their behavior--all you need is simple cause and effect.

It doesn't require watching children like a hawk, a world of babygates, total separation or any other (IMO) overreaction. It requires letting the child get snapped at or even bitten (not by a dog that hates kids or has a hard mouth, of course), explaining why that happened, and discussing how not to let it happen again.

Even a three-year old gets cause and effect. Parents do their children a disservice when they don't allow kids to find out what the consequences of their actions are.

Fisher I understand where you are coming from but I don't agree that letting a child get bitten is the best lesson.  What if it's a warning bite by a large dog?  On a toddler that warning bite could do permanent damage. 

I do think that you're right where children must learn the consequences of their actions though, but I think human intervention is the most efficient route.  Had our Akita bitten my nephew, the damage done would have been pretty severe.  As it is, that famous Shiloh growl was deep enough and low enough to work wonders.  Also the two of them were never left unsupervised together-even if we had tried the akita would have followed us out of the room.

"yep, what you guys said."  I grew up with dogs too.  I remember getting in trouble multiple times as a kid for playing on the floor with our dogs.  The first dog I remember was a min. poodle.  I used to lay on the floor and try to play tug with her - with my teeth mind you.  My father would scold me EVERY time he caught me. 
"Get up off the floor and stay out of the dog's face before you lose an eye!"  She did end up biting me once, but that was when I had her dressed in my doll's clothes and trying to put her in a stroller - I got in BIG trouble for that one; not the dog. 
So, yes; I also learned early on that dog's aren't toys and my parents instilled that in me.
 
As far as socializing my own dogs to kids; that's a little bit of a challenge since we don't have kids or many kids that visit either.  We do have one friend that comes over occasionally, and their baby is now about 8 months old.  The last time they were here, the baby was just "gaga" over the little dogs and wanted to touch them.  I made sure the mother kept the baby close to her, but she stooped down on our dog's level.  I told her not to let him "touch" them right away and to let them sniff the baby.  I sat down with the dogs (they're short ShihTz) and told them they were "good boys" to reinforce their good behavior.  There was no growling, posturing or any unusual signs, just wagging and sniffing and looking at me for direction.  It all worked out ok, but I don't think I would have permitted any of it (for the baby's sake) if I didn't trust the temperment of my dogs.  If I had a larger breed that had ever demonstrated any temperment issues before, I doubt that I would even allowed the introduction at that close proximity.
 
I have thought about this a lot lately, as I would like to OWN a Shepherd in a couple of years.  Knowing what I already know about the breed from working with a Shepherd rescue, one thing that necessary and not optional, is SOCIALIZING EARLY with EVERY POSSIBLE CIRCUMSTANCE I can think of.  One of the things I'm not sure where or how to socialize with is children.  Since we don't have children, and most of our nieces and nephews are grown also, how do you accomplish this?[8|]

What about neighbor children?

One way is to keep taking the dog to class at a facility that lets kids in - don't stop with puppy kindergarten.  Take him to the big box pet stores, sit outside the local post office or supermarket and let kids come and pat (this is soooo easy to do with a ten week old pup - everyone wants to pat him at that age), the feed store usually allows dogs, too.  Bring him to the park, the beach, wherever...even if you have to hold him (if he hasn't had his shots yet), he will still get to interact.

Great thread!
 
Ugh, I have a problem with this one. My dog is quite tolerant and patient around people she knows, but my younger sister treats her like she would a toy. I have talked to her about it countless times, but she just won't quit. I even tried the whole ignore-the-bad-praise-the-good thing. Honestly, I think she does it just to see my reaction (sometimes I catch her looking at me to see what I'll do) or to see how far she can get away with. My dog has excellent house manners, is extremely gentle and has never growled, bared her teeth or snapped, which is why I think my sister has a false sense of security around her. ("False" because all dogs are capable of biting.) She even tries to scare the dog on purpose. When I tell her to quit it, she says she's trying to get my dog "used to" whatever she is doing. (Yeah, right!) The worst thing by far I have ever seen happen was she stepped on my dog's mouth. My dog was lying on her side on the floor, and my sister was sitting on a chair at the dinner table. She actually put her foot (with slipper on) and pressed it onto my dog's mouth! [:@] I was really surprised, so I watched her like a hawk again to see if she would do it. She didn't. But I have a feeling that if I had scolded her for it, she would have tried it again.         
 
By the way, my sister is already fifteen years old. [:'(] Any suggestions would be great. .

i both love and hate this thread.  here's why: (long, bear with me)
 
it gives me a place to brag about how tolerant tek and rosie (amstaff and pit, for those who don't know) are with children.  a lot of my friends have young kids who are not "dog-kids", and yank tails, jowels, and ears, try to ride tmy dogs, shriek really loudly in their ears, steal their toys, run at them full speed, etc.  my dogs have always tolerated this behavior with complete grace.  they will stand stone still as a toddler pulls on their ears.  they will surrender toys immediately.  they will allow themselves to be stepped on, pushed, and even bitten without so much as a blink.  for those of you who are thinking, "why don't you stop the kids??" the answer is that i do, but that i also feel their parents are responsible for disciplining their own children.  i don't have kids.  i don't know how to discipline them appropriately.  also, i wouldn't want these parents disciplining my dogs.  so that's the "love" part of the thread.
 
now here's the "hate".  when i was a kid, maybe 8 or 9, we had a black lab mix named bear.  my memories are very vague, but i remember him lunging and snapping at the neighbors from the end of his leash.  i also remember that he stayed outside most of the time, on a long run, even in the snow.  and, tragically, i also remember that one time he peed in the house and my dad beat him.  i was there, i saw it.  i have absolutely never forgiven my father for this, and it may be why i am so sensitive to dog abuse and behavior now.  one very hot day, the dog was lying on the hardwood floor trying to get some relief, and i was poking him and prodding him and, big suprise, he bit me.  a warning bite, i know now, because it didn't even come close to breaking the skin, but i was very scared and screamed and cried.  2 days later, my mom took me to a friend's house while she took bear to "a farm".  read: had him put down.  as i think about this now, i feel so awful.  this was truly a dog who fell victim to a bad situation.  nobody in my family knew how to care for dogs, and it manifested itself in aggression and ultimately the dog's death.
 
i propose mandatory "canine education" at the elementary school level, in which kids are exposed to dogs in the classroom and taught how to behave around them and how to treat them appropriately.  i also propose mandatory screening of adoptive families at ALL shelters, to keep people like my dad from ever getting their hands on a dog.  (my dad is never permitted to be alone with my dogs at any time, to this day.)

by the way, i did nothing to "teach" my dogs their child tolerance.  bully breeds have a reputation for being great with kids because of their high tolerance for pain.  strangely, though, and it's kind of fun to watch, they seem to *know* that these are just children and are not to be messed with.

The animals we had when I was a kid were pretty child tolerant. I remember being amazed at the behavior of my cousins for pouring 7-Up on the dog and lifting the horses tail to see what was underneath. The cat wasn't the slightest bit tolerant though and if you were unkind to her you were scratched and bitten.
 
We live by a school. Getting the dogs used to scooters and skateboards was a bit of an effort. Basically just coming closer and closer while on leash and treats and praise. We had some trouble with a couple of brats that wanted to torment and tease Tasha and had to start over again. Fortunately there are some other kids that are pretty nice and that helped. Wolfgang has always been a trustworthy dog. If he's hurt, he wimpers and licks the hand that hurts him. If another dog or person isn't nice to him, he leaves. He runs to momma for comfort.  Both of them are happy, resiliant dogs by nature and if something they don't like happens to them, they shrug it off and don't fear another similar encounter.
 
Floyd. The basic answer is that I don't trust him around children--at least not around children I don't know and without my direct supervision. We exercise very, very early in the morning and in open areas where I can keep an eye out for anyone coming. He has completed advanced obedience but I need enough time to direct him.  I let known children give him treats while he's in sit and let certain older kids play ball with him--one on one. We don't have children as visitors and if we did, Floyd would have to stay in his room. Because of his fearfulness, Floyd is never going to have the full and complete life the other two have. But he likes his safe, boring routine and doesn't desire the new experiences the other two enjoy. If children I don't know want to pet him, I just say he's shy.

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs

How about a discussion on how we teach JQP that dogs are not toys for their children to mishandle, tease, hug, or poke?  Any stories, anecdotes, caveats, or rants are welcome here.  Also, welcome - how you taught your dog to be social with children.
Parents, put on your hard hats - it may be a bumpy ride, but one that could save your kids from a bite, and one that could save your dog from the pink stuff in the needle.

 
Prevention is the best policy. 
 
If a parent is diligent at training children in the usual manners, then they would tend to do the same with the animals/children relationships.  An observation I make in my neighborhood seems to coincide with this belief.  Those families with well mannered children seem to have well mannered dogs.  The precious few that have been raised with practically no manners have dogs with few manners as well.  I recall an incident when their dog was humping a child that was laughing about it, and my older husky that never was angry, surprised the heck out of me and snarled and lunged at that dog!  He knew that the behavior of that animal was wrong.  It was amazing to witness that ...My boy didn't ever bite, but that effort from him did cause the badly behaved dog to stop right away! He was a great dog with a strong affinity for children.  It seemed to be born in him.  But of course, my children are pretty fine examples of well behaved specimens and how to treat a dog.  My proof is in the pudding.  Happy loving dogs.
 
Waiting till children are older, and at least most of them are mature enough to work with a dog/puppy is not a bad idea.  Children that are youngest, really don't understand a lot of the concepts we need to teach in order for them to be safe and alone with a dog.  But if your other children are old enough for that, there is help and it will be more safe.
 
Personally, it was my mother who taught the rules for the most part re. dogs.    Respecting the animals space for food, never ever to tease.  And learning about how to take care of the dogs was a normal part of the daily chores, and actually enjoyment.  When we went on vacation, 90% of the time, the dogs came too.   Medical care was routine, never neglected.  The things I learned were all based from my growing up.  And of course as with anything that you really love dearly to your heart, you are always going to want to do the best that you can and learn more.
 
Never throw caution to the wind.  Things can go wrong.  A wonderful trusting animal can become sick.  And show new seemingly bad behaviors.  If you do not watch a dog and leave him out,  you are not going be able to keep your dog safe from a mean passerbye or something.  If they bit a neighbor child in trying to protect themselves, then you are liable for that nasty sitch.   So, why expose your dog to that ?
 
Watch and care for the dog.  Teach respect care and concern to all who live in or enter your home.  Visitors that do not abide by the rules don't get invited back, or you must keep your dog safe from them!
 
 
 
 

I am really kind of impressed with kids around here.  When we have Odie out and about a kid will frequently ask, "Can I pet your dog?"  I always compliment the kid and their parents on how you should always ask before you pet someone's dog.