Lost - Have no idea what to do now! Peeing dog

JackieG

You can't successfully train this dog to be a happy member of your family if she stays outside most of the time.  That's just a fact.  You wouldn't raise your children isolated for much of their waking hours with no interaction or opportunity to learn.  Thirty minutes a few times a day is better than nothing but far short of what's required.

You should seriously consider finding a good behaviorist to come in and show you what you need to do or rehome the dog.  Dogs require time and commitment.  It seems that you want to have a dog just like the dog you lost.  That's understandable but unrealistic. Dogs are as individual as people. 

Edit to add:

ann404

(I posted about that too, so I'm not sure why you can't find my post)

 People may not follow what is going on with you because these have been your threads:

4/15/08 regarding your Chihuahua's vaccines: http://forum.dog.com/forums/p/78139/608588.aspx#608588

4/30/08 regarding your old Collie's passing: http://forum.dog.com/forums/p/78998/615924.aspx#615924

1/15/09 regarding a rescue Golden you got after the passing of your Collie where you describe how your daughter's behavior problems were exacerbating issues with the Golden.   - http://forum.dog.com/forums/p/90709/719457.aspx#719457  What happened to that dog?  What are you doing differently with this Collie than you did with the Golden?  How has your daugher's behavior problems been addressed relative to the dog?

 Hi,

What a shame your lovely dog is doing this! You sound like you are at wits end! I certainly would be too!

Have you been to a vet and had a check up? Maybe Brady has a problem that could be treated? I'm sure she doesnt like it happening either. Would be worth it just to rule it out?

I would definitely suggest a puppy training school for the problem with the lead. The expert handlers there may even have a solution for the peeing!

It will most likely take some time and a lot of work but it sounds like she would be worth doing it for as you all think she is very special :-)

All the best!

Trish, Harley and Rose

*removed by Moderator*

ann404

When hubby got home we let her in again and this time she was very excited to see him, and our oldest was also home. still she was basically ok (yes she peed), but when our oldest started to get hyper the dog couldn't take it. She got more and more hyper too. So we decided to end it on a good note and let the dog back outside.

ending it positively is  good -- but you kind of TOTALLY missed the point here.

This is NOT the dog's fault!  it's the behavior of the child *and* the husband that needs to change in order to train the dog!!!

 When the child comes home from school -- instruct her to IGNORE the dog.  Don't speak to her, don't play with her, just turn her BACK and pretend the dog isn't there.  (Someone gave you wise advise above -- this IS *how* you deal with submissive urination -- **YOU** humans have to reduce the pressure and the stimulation on the dog so the dog CAN handle it.  This isn't the dog's fault.  It's physical.  Particularly while this dog is a puppy you need to be ***training*** every single moment of the day!!

ann404

  So do you think coming in a few times a day fro 30mins would get her more social? Or would it make her feel anixous knowing we are going to put her back out shortly?????

If limiting the time at first helps YOU cope then fine.  But it needs to be for longer and longer and ultimately ALL the day.

In honesty, for someone who has HAD a collie, you seem remarkably unaware of what herders *DO*. 

Gentleness with a baby?  Oh yes -- that should be the initial response -- but as the baby grows and tries to play with the dog -- you have to have TRAINED BEHAVIORS in place to give the dog a place that is "baby-free" to go to (a room that is closed, a gated off area or even a crate - -but not for long periods).

A herder NEEDS to be with it's family.  They want to "keep track of" everyone.  They also WANT and NEED to have herding games in order to channel the herding tendencies so they don't boil over into frustration (and that can include adamant behaviors on the dog's behalf to MAKE the children go in the direction the DOG thinks they need to go in -- you don't want that).

The child needs to learn how TO approach the dog.  NO yelling, screaming, joyous jumping around and squealing -- rather after the first 15 or so minutes that the child is home, then the child sits down in a chair and calls the dog TO them.  "Poochie 'sit'!" and make sure the child has a treat to give the dog. 

Teach the child HOW to offer a treat flat-handed. 

"Well can't they ever play??"

NOT YET.  Not until you get the dog mature enough and the CHILD **TRAINED ENOUGH** so that the child can approach the dog without the dog being too over-stimulated.

 Begin outside games -- like take a bucket and some tennis balls.  Have the child heave the bucket of balls up in the air.  When the dog picks up a ball put the bucket under the dog's mouth and say "drop!" -- when the dog drops it TREAT. 

In that way over and over show the dog that for every tennis ball she drops in the bucket she gets a treat.  Gradually space out the game so the dog brings the balls TO the bucket.  SOON you will have it so when the balls are tossed in the air the dog will pick up the balls and put them IN the bucket.  The dog will eventually probably nose the balls closer TO the bucket (and you can reward this with free shaping if you want) -- HERDING GAME.

"But she won't go get a ball" -- you don't want her to -- you want her to RELEASE the ball IN the bucket.

THIS IS WORK -- this is not truly "play" -- and herders NEED work.

Part of this dog's problem is that she's frustrated -- she has NO job.

It's very likely that someone ELSE trained your former collie.  The dog HAD a herding drive but it was well trained enough that you really didn't notice it.  But getting a puppy measn you have to FORM those behaviors you want.

YOu know how your old dog would follow everyone room to room -- sometimes even bumping into your legs???

THAT IS HERDING.  Yes -- it is.  Now the dog was likely very polite about it (because someone in it's history TAUGHT the dog to be polite about it) -- but that collie thing where they will stick their nose behind your knees so you "move over"??  THAT is herding.  Except herding people is generally frowned upon.  Sometimes, if it's polite, it's tolerated in a beloved pet.

But that politeness has to be taught and reinforced.  When she's gentle with the baby you say "that's gentle!  How nice!!" (or whatever reinforcement you want.!   Let her KNOW she's doing something right that pleases you.  YOu can be low key with your verbal praise and not ramp her up with an excited voice.  But let her *know* she's doing something right.

Good dogs are trained ... they are formed and shaped.  They don't just automatically happen.  Even the 'best" dog can be a pain in the butt if it's not taught acceptable behavior. 

See you have to understand -- The first time the pup jumped up in excitement and the older child squealed and screemed in excitement??? THAT REINFORCED JUMPING.  so little girls, in particular, sound like puppies when they squeal and carry on -- the puppy thinks that's HOW to play.  She hasn't a clue what she's doing wrong.  Only that periodically she's suddenly left a-l-o-n-e!!!  And she's tried every puppy trick she KNOWS to be submissive and show you all she's no threat.

And she's simply ostracized for it.  She does *NOT* understand.  so you're taking what is, in it's simplest form, both physical *and* a behavior the dog has offered TRYING to be submissive and show you that she thinks you're "boss" and you've reinforced it (with excitement and squealing -- and with your husband he's gotten big and deep-voiced and "dominant" ) and you've actually encouraged the very behavior you want to diminish.

YOu've got to meet this dog more than half-way.  YOU can't expect a young un-trained pup to somehow magically know what's expected.  The humans have to train -- you have to modulated your voice, structure ALL behavior around the dog to **get** what you want BY PLAN -- you sort of have to change your own behavior enough so the dog can't help but do the right thing.

As far as the britches with pads in them -- no, she's not going to LOVE it ... so TRAIN her.  You put it on -- and give her some treats while you do it.  When she starts to  pull at them say "no" and re-direct her -- give her a toy, call her to 'come' and "sit' at your feet and reward THAT.  When you tell her "leave it" or whatever your command will be to get her to not pull them off **reward her** when she stops and leaves it alone.

PUPPIES ARE A ******TON****** OF WORK!!

If anyone told you different they were lying to you. 

Calliecritturs,

                 I can't thank you enought for your huge and very well writen reply. I will tell you honestly "we should not have gotten another dog with the two small kids running around". Yes, my oldest has behavioral problems that she can't control. Yes, when she comes into a room everyone is on edge. This is probably the biggest problem here for bradie to deal with. You are also right that our old dog was closer to a year old when we got her and no kids.

               I brought her in this morning for almost an hour (just me and baby) and I was again surpised to see her almost playing with the baby. Going in and out the babys' house with her. Towards to end she got hyper, and I'm thinking she may have needed to go as she wanted back outside. I agree with most all you wrote including that we need to keep her inside more. My oldest is going to be impossible there, but she so needs to be included. She is scared of the dog!

               So one more question, I took a thin page of newspaper, rolled it up. and that is what I'm using in the house. When I see her in the getting ready to do something bad state. I hit the newspaper on my hand (it is thin and old so it doesn't make a loud sound) and say bradie. It really seems to be interupting her thought and she comes to me or goes and does something else. Do you think this is OK????? She doesn't seem excited by it, or scared. Still I am concerned that if I do the wrong thing here she will get worst.

Oh one more thing, to the person asking about Reed. Yes, we gave him back to the rescue, and he went on to another state to be in a lab rescue foster care. We didn't have him but for 2-3 months, and was told by a trainer he was showing donimate behavior. He was huge and I couldn't stop him when he mounted my then 5yrs old. Yes, I posted on this site about Reed, the same site I found when we were trying to decide what to do with our old dog who had cancer. Reed didn't work out not because he had puppy problems or because my daughter had problems, but because I felt it was super un-safe. If he bite her He would have suffered, and she would have suffered, and I didn't feel I could manage him. Training takes time and I didn't feel I could take that route with him. Never was he in any danger going back to the rescue. Who did indeed tell me that he had been taken back 2 times for the same problem. I feel they should have told US that in the first place, as we were honest and had daughter with us. Opps, I didn't mean to make this so long, but I feel Bradie has a very good chance of being a good dog since posting to this fourm. That's why I keep coming back here, as sometimes you just need that boost of advice, and that has helped me many times in the past.  I also think if more people posted their problems to these fourms, less dogs would be in shelters. There is a great sense of relief when someone post back and says yeah I had that problem but here is how we worked it out. Thanks, Ann

 How about a little liquid children's Benadryl to help calm her down a little temporarily while you address other issues. We use it for our small dogs for allergies, collapsing trachea, reverse sneeze syndrome, AND to help calm them down on New Year's and the 4th of July from the fireworks. It also helps for those that freak out from thunderstorms. It is very safe and vets recommend it for many different things.

As far as the peeing maybe the doggie diapers next and possible start with the behavior issues first. I faithfully watch Cesar Romano-The Dog Whisperer on the National Geographic channel and he has also written several books which I am sure should address at least some of your issues. You should also be able to find their website to ask questions or find answers for your problems that other people have already asked. 

Have you tried the local animal shelter or humane society? They usually have many volunteers and possibly someone can answer some questions on the phone or maybe even come over to help for a free in-home training session, or they might know of someone else that could.

We just adopted a 4 year old male rescue dog on May 1st that the humane society neutered right away. In order to help him want to stop marking all of the time, there is a Mark Out band that you wrap around his male genitalia when he is indoors (I attach a sanitary pad cut to fit) and this is supposed to help him feel the need to mark so frequently inside and out. dog.com does sell the wraps at a reasonable price-they are basically like an ace bandage with velcro, so you could make it yourself. I don't recommend the ones at PetSmart or PetCo as the elastic is too tight, thicker and more uncomfortable for our dog AND approx $17 vs $5.99-$7.99. I have seen some improvement; but he's still a work in process. He's about 4 yrs, had obviously been well loved, trained, groomed, etc. BUT not neutered. He seems to like riding in the car, so I think he either ran off when they went somewhere, or he went after a female in heat and got lost. His hair was very matted; but not real overgrown, he was starving and apparently had lost his ID tags except he had a name he responds to-Banjo, so I suspect it might have been embroidered on a collar or bandana...He has been obedience training; but we are working on keeping him from always wanting to go up to EVERY human being we come in contact with-I think he is still looking for his first family, even though he finally doesn't try to eat his food and our other Yorkie-Poo, Lucie's food too. We can tell him to leave her food alone now and he will. He knows that he will not starve here anymore. Anyway, I digress!

Dog.com sells Pooch pads that have EXCELLENT ratings! They look like little covered vinyl rugs-the dogs do pee on them; but it doesn't go through so your rug is protected-you can wash them up to 300 washes-great to have around for us when we have to be away longer than a few hours as Banjo is on a 2-3 hr time frame of needing to go out for now. (it used to be every hour or hour and a half!) Many people highly recommend them-not too bad of a price AND NO ODOR!!! Perhaps this could help-if she doesn't want to use them, their is always the spray to use on the pads that draws dogs to use them.

RE: the high energy-it sounds like you have an athletic dog-maybe get an inexpensive dog agility course trainng set for the back yard. You can find them for under $50 on the internet and include weave poles, short windbreaker material tunnel, and jumps. This is something that could be done with the kids too! You set up the mini course, cut up a hot dog to give as rewards or some other treat, and basically you run along with her guiding her thru the weave poles, run to the jumps and guide her over the jumps, raising as you see how high she can safely jump over, and then thru the tunnel, then running as fast as you and your dog can to the finish line!

Another thing is to go to a dog park where she can run around with other dogs off leash to burn off her energy. It sounds like she is just a very active, athletic dog that might not be getting enough exercise, so she gets so excited about everything and it has just been snowballing. I really don't think this is something that can't get worked out, deal with one issue at a time so as not to overwhelm her-remember she is just a puppy and large dogs take longer to mature so her attention span is short. Therefore you might want to break up training sessions into several times a day.

My daughter's dog is a Papillon, American Eskimo and Pekingese; but the Pekingese hid. Basically her temperment and build is American Eskimo; but coloring of a Papillon. She is over 4 years and still a work in progress and Kellie works with her every day. Oreo can do many tricks and has come very far; but she still sometimes gets excited and pees a little when someone comes over sometimes. I highly recommend Simple Solution, or go to the carpet cleaning section in WalMart and get their generic brand of the Pet carpet cleaner that cleans and takes about 2 weeks to actually enzymatically break it down. You can use it on furniture, carpeting, laundry, etc..

I wish you the best!

I would first have your vet check her out for an infection, and also ask about the liquid Benadryl to help calm her down so you can deal with her other issues, one at a time as their attention spans are short. The pooch pads I think are worth trying as well as doggie diapers until you can get figure out the best way to make sure she gets enough exercise of some form everyday as it does sound like she is very athletic. (In case she takes off the diapers or they leak I would have the pooch pads handy). Your Vet should also be able to give you advice on all of your issues and suggest where you might be able to get additional help.

You can email me directly for support-I am not an expert; but have had to deal with and have eventually trained some problem dogs, plus our rescue dog Banjo that we just adopted. Hang in there! Oh! there are also interactive toys you can get thru dog.com also that might help keep her mind stimulated and not bored and maybe lessen the jumping like treat balls that they have to roll around and figure out how to get the food oiut, or Kjgyen plush interactive toys such as squirrels with squeakers in a tree, or a box with squeaker balls inside, turtles with baby turtles under the shelf, etc. These have been VERY helpful in the cold Nebraska winters during blizzards to keep her occupied and out of trouble. Another thing is to hide a bone or something, have her smell a similar one and then guide her to go around and find it. This is something you could get the kids into helping with-similar to hide and seek!

Bonnie Sue Lewis

bonniesue58@comcast.net

ann404

Calliecritturs,

                 I can't thank you enought for your huge and very well writen reply. I will tell you honestly "we should not have gotten another dog with the two small kids running around". Yes, my oldest has behavioral problems that she can't control. Yes, when she comes into a room everyone is on edge. This is probably the biggest problem here for bradie to deal with. You are also right that our old dog was closer to a year old when we got her and no kids.

               I brought her in this morning for almost an hour (just me and baby) and I was again surpised to see her almost playing with the baby. Going in and out the babys' house with her. Towards to end she got hyper, and I'm thinking she may have needed to go as she wanted back outside. I agree with most all you wrote including that we need to keep her inside more. My oldest is going to be impossible there, but she so needs to be included. She is scared of the dog!

               So one more question, I took a thin page of newspaper, rolled it up. and that is what I'm using in the house. When I see her in the getting ready to do something bad state. I hit the newspaper on my hand (it is thin and old so it doesn't make a loud sound) and say bradie. It really seems to be interupting her thought and she comes to me or goes and does something else. Do you think this is OK????? She doesn't seem excited by it, or scared. Still I am concerned that if I do the wrong thing here she will get worst.

She will get worse if you don't learn the proper way to train her.  The good news is that herding dogs are sooooo smart they can learn just about anything if you learn how to train correctly.  Watch my *high drive* Aussie leaving livestock (my horse) alone - all done with clicker training: http://www.youtube.com/user/sequoyahbean#p/u/0/Di3cH2T6sHc.

Here she is putting her own frisbee away (she picks up all the tennis balls after our Yappy Hour play groups, too): http://www.youtube.com/user/sequoyahbean#p/u/8/ISglEGyoqvg

You will note from this page that isolating a collie is one of the worst things to do in response to typical puppy behaviors.  They don't just want to be near their families, they need to be.  That doesn't mean you can never leave them alone, but it does mean that they enjoy being part of the family: http://www.yourpurebredpuppy.com/reviews/collies.html

If you would like a referral to a trainer near you, email me at my biz: pawsforpraise@verizon.net.  Your family really should go to class with this dog.  I can tell by your posts that it would help you enormously.  Unfortunately, when you have a naturally great dog as your first dog, and then get a pup that needs training, things can go downhill quickly.  If your dog is fearful or anxious or naturally subordinate, you need to pair food with bravery, so to speak, and reward her during the times she can be quiet without peeing, but ignore any wetting when she does it - calling attention to it, or scooping her up and putting her outside only makes her more anxious - dogs are more scared when they are isolated from you.   Parenting is not my area of expertise, but I do find that, among my students, the parents who can keep their kids quieter in their interactions with puppies have far less problem with nipping, jumping, and submissive wetting, than those who don't or can't. 

If you are not able to swing a class right now, you can take advantage of free training lessons at www.clickerlessons.com  And, if you can find a copy of Jean Donaldson's "The Culture Clash" to read, it will give you a good insight into the way dogs think, versus the way you think they should, or the way we do.  That's important, because the more you can communicate with this dog, in ways *she* understands, the better the submissive wetting can be managed.  I always find that it's better not to wait until the dog is doing something wrong so that you can correct it, it's better to show the dog what *to* do so that you can reward it.  Makes for a happier dog and less stress in the house.

Maybe she has a bladder infection and that is why she is peeing so much. I would take her to the vet.

Leader of the pack and spiritdogs, thank you for all the advise, and links. I will look at each one:) As for Bradie, an update: We got her those diapers and she really doesn't seem to mind them. We also got her fixed. That went fine. The vet doesn't think there is any bladder infection. She still does all the things she did before, pee, jump, bite. She is also losing her baby teeth, poor thing has got to be suffering. I have been bring her in more and even gave her a Icy pop today as a treat. She spent most of the day right by hubbys side, as he was cleaning the shed. She wants to be right by us. It's a real shame as we want the same, but can't let her bite the kids either. Hubby seems to be very attached now, but he still won't take her for training. Long story short, That oil spill in the Gulf has effected his job and pay:( No more off shore trips for him. So that is some of the reason, we don't know how bad this mess could get, so we need to save our pennies. Still we love Bradie and will just keep trying and going to this site for help:) Thanks again, Ann

When I was growing up my little brother and I grew up around a mixture of herders (Collie, Sheltie, Aussie) and bully's (Boxer-something mix).  The all got hyper, but the herders could get a viscous streak when they were really hyper.  What seemed to work with our Collie named Lark was a REALLY short leash - like 2 feet - and a brisk walk.  Our Aussie named Growly (because he growl talked at people) almost always submissive peed no matter what training we gave him.  About 10 area rugs and a rehoming later I realized my then 5 year old brother was brandishing a plastic hollow bat when he went outside the day after my mom rehomed him (I wasn't living there at this time) - I asked why and it turned out that he had to "fend him off" with the bat.  I really don't mean to sound offensive, but kids can just freak out and be downright "mean" to dogs who are trying to play or do their "thing" - which we humans might find annoying.  Make sure your kids aren't banging the dog around in self defense (because that's all they know how to do).  Please, please, please don't hear that I'm calling you a bad parent.  We're working with our 4 year old right now.

Also - find something for her to herd.  Buy a crappy little remote control car that is decently fast and drive it around your house or back yard.  This worked marvelously for our Collie Lark.  We superglued a stuffed rabbit to it and gave him a treat if he was able to pin it somewhere.  It made him way more happy that he had something to herd - rather than us!  Trainers can correct me if I'm speaking blasphemy (which I could be - it was my idea back then at age 14...)

Short and sweet - Lassie did a great service to Collies on one hand because they are awesome dogs if you don't have little kids.  HOWEVER. They are herders.  They nip at heels.  That is how we humans selectively bred them.  I have a 4 and 6 year old.  I LOVE collies and would have loved to get one, but my kids get up and run around too much.  You may end up  needing to spend some serious TLC on the dog or rehoming it somewhere that has no little kids.  If you or one of your kids are old enough, the remote control car might be a good idea too.  Or getting some type of thing it can exert energy on.  I really wish I could have taught my herders to fetch, it is a terrific outlet for energy but they never would.

Thank you for that wonderful post. I would never have thought of a remote controlled car:) Yes I find not just my 6 yr old but also hubby being too aggessive in their correction. As I have told him I know it is upsetting to have a dog bite our little kid, but from this forum I also know that we could be setting her up to REALLY bite. Still we have made some progress with her. Now she comes inside everyday, for a few hours. Working on longer. We have her in diapers to stop the indoor peeing. She is so kind with our littlest one (17 months) that she can feed her food. I also finally got a picture of her with our littlest child. That was great. She is still a puppy and I still am working hard on getting hubby to go to training with her. I know that would be a big help. So I'll try the car thing for sure, as we are not ready to give up. I think she can be a sweet dog, but you are right about the nipping. Maybe our other dog had less collie as she didn't do that.