Animal Emotion and Reasoning

    • Gold Top Dog

    Animal Emotion and Reasoning

    I have personally seen the same behavior in foxes - protection of the fallen.  But, when I saw this, I was convinced that we need to rethink our ideas about animal emotion, and their reasoning capacity.  Lack of language does not imply lack of thought, and while the thought process may not be as sophisticated as our own, I have no doubt of its existence.  Once you watch this, you will never think of squirrels in quite the same way...and you may have more appreciation for emotion and reasoning in dogs, too.  They deserve much more respect than we, as a race, give them.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Jrdb0LkQCU&feature=related

    • Moderators
    • Gold Top Dog

     Interesting and sad video to watch, but you know the problems inherent with ascribing motivations to animals.  We start with what our motivation would be, and that is probably not what is going on.

    Squirrels operate at a really instinctual level.  I had the fun of raising a squirrel pup from bottle to freedom .  Piper, who has a soft mouth retrieve, found Rocky at the base of a tree and brought him to hand.  We found two more the next day, one dead and the other injured.  Something got at the nest, possibly a male squirrel.  Rocky's eyes hadn't opened yet.  I did some fast research, saw my vet, and started bottle feeding.  The first time Rocky saw an acorn, he knew what it was and how to open it.  Same with his first walnut.  Very impressive tooth action.  After his release, I watched him build a nest.  He had never seen one, but knew how.  He also came programmed on how to store food, and knew that his first friend was going to be more fun than me giving him peanuts.  He came close, looked at the nut, looked at her, looked at the nut, and left to find a new home.

    It may be the camera angle, but I see a size difference that could be a mother trying to protect her young from crows, who will attack an unprotected nest.  If that is what is going on, it may be an emotional response or a survival based instinctual response.  I watched a video of a rabbit attacking a snake to chase it from her nest.   We don't know if animals work off emotions as we do. 

    We do know that dogs know if they can figure out what we want from them, we will provide for them.  We've spent centuries breeding animals to meet our needs, and dogs have made careers out of manipulating us. They have learned that if they obey a few simple commands, they get fed and petted.  If they avoid soiling our houses, they get to sleep on soft warm bedding.  I like to think Piper follows me from room to room because she likes me, but it may be she has learned that if I grab a snack, if she's near, she gets some.

    I know my dog has reasoning abilities.  I've watched her figure out things.  But a lot of what she does has been bred in to her.  If she sees us as her pack, we don't know if that is an emotional bond or a need for familiarity and security that is built in. 

    • Gold Top Dog

    As my reaction to the video - I've seen something VERY similar.  Many in my neighborhood feed feral cats.  (and then they wonder why we have a coon problem -- because the coons eat the cat food) -- I have many squirrels in my yard (I have live oaks and so do all my neighbors -- major squirrel habitat)

    I *never* have a squirrel IN my backyard -- they know I have dogs.  But they also know my dogs are NEVER loose out front.  I've had squirrels live several generations in my yard (and yes, they do have markings -- you can distinguish one from another). 

    But they also know I do NOT feed them -- they don't need to get more "used" to humans.  I greet them and talk to them as I go in and out.  I do *not* try to train them to come to me -- I feel that is wrong on so many levels because it gives them false security.  Neighbors feed them -- throwing bread out (which is NOT healthy squirrel food and causes all sorts of health issues).  It also makes them run across the road which can be deadly.  The squirrels DO know (and have seen me many times) come back out of my house with a box -- I put them at rest in a clean box and David buries them when he comes home.  We've done this for years. 

    Last year I drove by just after my neighbor had tossed out bread.  *sigh*  A beautiful squirrel lay dead in the road.  It's friend stood guard over it.  I stopped and opened my window and said "Oh, LT ...  I am SO sorry"

    LT = Long Tail.  In my heart I knew it was ST in the road -- a beautiful squirrel who had lost part of its tail some years ago. 

    The chittering was audible -- there were at least 6 squirrels all within about 30 feet -- obviously communicating with each other. 

    I pulled over and parked and came back with my gloves on.  I was hoping she was still alive ... but was not.  She was still warm -- it had obviously just happened.  I picked her up and put her up on the grass onto my lawn so she wouldn't get further mangled by a car.

    I came back a few minutes later with a box and some paper towel.  All the squirrels were essentially in a semi-circle around her just 4-5 feet away.  There can be no other real explanation other than they were guarding/mourning somehow.  When I got there I asked them if it was ok that I took her? (yes I DID ask them).  LT stayed ... the rest left.  He watched me put her in the box and I talked to him a bit (of course I was crying -- I'd seen her for years).

    LT has a new family here now ...

    I'm not going to draw any conclusions about behavior.  Of course most of what they do IS inate.  But that doesn't preclude an emotional bond and a certain amount of sense and sensibility. 

    Wild things sense intent -- I see it over and over and over with my own eyes.    It's how wildlife rescuers and rehabbers can pick up a dangerous animal that's injured without harm.  My Florida yard is filled with critters -- occasonally you just have to pick one up and move it out of harm's way.  Or take care of it when the worst happens.

    This impacts how I deal with animals from beginning to end.  It's also why I steer clear of the training threads because to say I get "tense" with people who endlessly debate about behavior modification is an understatements. 

    Because they DO feel -- they remember, they respond to kindness and calmness.  From the most wild "crittur" (to use my spelling) to the most docile dog.  Nature has been around longer than we are and generally does pretty well for itself.

    • Gold Top Dog

    I'm the first one to say that animals have emotions, but I'm wary of drawing conclusions from these things. It's hard to say why they do what they do. One of our hated introduced bird species is very social. One day I saw one that had been hit by a car and was dead on the side of the road. The whole family had gathered quietly around it. I challenge the people that go out of their way to kill individuals of these birds to go on doing that after seeing the family gathered around a body like that. I think that the death of a family member is a big deal to social animals.

    I was convinced that the birds I studied for my honours thesis grieved when they lost a nest. I could always tell as soon as I came onto a territory if the birds had lost their nest. It would be very quiet. When I found the birds, they would often be in a part of their territory they didn't often spend time in. They would be unusually quiet and sedate. The next day, they would be back to their old selves and building a new nest.

    Science is working on the quantifying animal emotions thing. I'm doing my PhD on a method to detect positive or negative emotional states in dogs. 

    • Gold Top Dog

    I think that the death of a family member is a big deal to social animals.

    I do, too, and that was brought home to me even more the day Fergie died and I witnessed poor Sequoyah trying desperately to wake her little friend up, and frantically coming to me for help and returning to try again.  She was poking Fergie so hard she actually popped her up off the bed a few times before I got to her and "explained" best I could why she wouldn't be able to get her friend up.    

    • Gold Top Dog

     When my parents put their Tzu to sleep, Tootsie would whine and cry at his bed. RIP, Gizmoe. Even after my Dad washed it and we gave it to Toots, she wouldn't go near it. My Dad gave it to Goodwill.

    • Gold Top Dog

    The link took me to a page that said the video was private and I couldn't see it. Anyway, yes, I think animals mourn. Dogs do have a way of communicating that doesn't involve the Queen's English. I've mentioned it before, so I will mention it again. Once, a stray black cat was walking around the front of the house directly behind us. Shadow barked a few times. The Border Collies diagonal to us then moved to positions where they would be able to see the cat where should be in a few moments, continuing to walk across the front of that other house. From Shadow, they learned there was movement of another animal and where it was going to be.

    Now, it may not have been a technical report with GPS coordinates or polar coordinates, or even grid lay out, ala military, but somehow a message got across. Now, it could just as easily be that they would react to any barking and assume positions (for they do herd everday, everything from walkers to cars) to see what's up and try and herd that. But the point is, they assumed reconnaisance positions rather than just barking back at Shadow because he barked.

    Somethings are innate. I think humans are innately contentious and egotistical. There's even pride and motivation in being humble. But it is to view ourselves as superior to others. With variations, of course. Dogs may fight over a bone, and we may find that as silly. We may fight over a word and dogs may think that is silly.

    Even if a dog or cat whines or makes a noise when a human, such as DW, isn't home from work, yet, but that is because the pattern of being home at a certain time has become, indeed, a pattern that stabilizes their emotional state of mind and when things are not in order, then they are not in order.

    I think before we could ever rule out whether or not dogs have emotion and intelligence, we first have to define it in ourselves and what its root causes are. Sometimes, I learn about humans from watching my animals.