Clicker training for jealousy and aggression?

dax702

I know it's dogs like mine you *edit, name calling*, that's why I came here seeking help, but all I got was a couple of...

When I said "it's dogs like yours" I meant that as a type of dog, not as an insult to your personal dog. 

I am sure that if I were to say that "It's a dog like Cher, Tootsie, or Willow who cause problems in dog parks" and none of their owners, myself included, would be offended.  It's true, & we are mature enough, & aware enough to recognized it & take steps to keep issues from cropping up.

dax702

I didn't start with them; they started with me.

 If your experience in the dog parks is anything like this thread, it's no wonder you're dissatisfied.  The initial posts were not attacks on you, just genuine food for thought.  I owned a pit for a while and I'll add my voice that although we were working on training and she was really responsive to me, there were aspects of her personality that made the unpredictability of the dog park environment a dangerous place for her.  These posts were trying to say it's better to get the training under control before exposing your dog to the unpredictability of the dog park which could be a dangerous place for your dog, too.

There's a genuine issue here that experienced trainers/handlers with clicker skills can help you with.  We will give feedback on the whole situation, and you can take it or leave it.  But you may not violate forum rules in responding to it.  Nobody may. 

Check them out here, for everyone's reference:  http://forum.dog.com/forums/t/105582.aspx

Regardless of your feelings about whether your dog should continue at the park or not, if you start using the clicker to work on the behaviors your dog is exhibiting in the dog park you will *have* to take a break from the park to install the behaviors you want at lower levels of distractions without allowing practicing of the behavior.  The more she practices the bullying behavior you allude to, the better she'll get at it, and the longer it will take to solve.

My favorite book on using clicker for aggressive behavior is "Click to Calm" by Emma Parsons.  My next fav book for reactivity work is "Control Unleashed" by Leslie McDevitt.  You'll get a ton out of both books, but both (and those who use clicker in general) will both recommend breaking your work into tiny steps and setting your dog up for success.  

Stardog85 was the ONLY person with a constructive reply, and for that I say thank you.  I believe that any dog can be trained.  She's very happy, very energetic and there's just a few things that trigger the dominance/aggression.  She's fine in the park most of the time, and that's why I think she can be broken of these few habits. Anyways, I learned my lesson here, I'm sure not everyone on the forum is like those women, but it happens in every kind of discussion group; always a small core group of know-it-all people who offer nothing constructive. I will check out those books, thanks.

I'm not sure why I'm still trying.  I guess for the dogs sake.  

LOL, I thought my post was pretty well thought out.   

As the owner of an aggressive dog, I don't care what method of "training" you use, it will never be a responsible thing to put them in a dog park with other dogs, people, kids, etc.  They are way too unpredictable.   My dog will do anything perfectly with no distractions.  As soon as there is a "distraction"--meaning another dog or a person that she thinks looks weird or a plastic bag blowing by---her focus is GONE and she will not take treats--even if was a steak.  So, clicking may not work.  That is all I was trying to point out to you.  It didn't seem by your posts that you were aware of this. 

 Ok, you may not like this advice, but I would take at least a temporary break from the dog park. Then start going back when it's dead. Get control in the environment with no distractions. Leave when other dogs come. Then start staying in with only one dog, and building up to regular amounts of dogs. Starting with dogs who don't care about your dog might be better. My dog has no issues with others, but honestly, he doesn't care about playing with them. He is there for one purpose, and one purpose only. He is there to fetch. He might briefly check out another dog, but after he gives it a quick sniff, he's back to play with his ball. I prefer to be there when it's pretty empty, since it means nobody else steals his ball.  If your dog were mine, I would probably stay out of the dog park with others in it, because I am doubtful that I am willing to put in the effort necessary to keep it safe, and I don't trust other people. If I really felt like I needed to go, I would probably consult a professional trainer. I might in this case pick the trainer I go to sometimes who runs a day care at her facility. I'd feel like in terms of dog social behaviors, of the people I go to, she would have the most experience.

If you try clicker training at the dog park I would not bring the treats and clicker into the park. MANY dogs are food aggressive and I have personally seen people bring in treats or high value toys with thier dogs and then have a dog fight because thier dog or someone else started to guard the items which led to a nasty fight. If you do want to train around the enviroment then stay outside the park and practice a safe distance from the parks fence.

I went to my local park with my boys but stopped going because to many people brought dogs who werent under control or kids who werent supervised. My dogs are good with other dogs but if the dogs are aggresive then I risk them getting into a fight because they dont back down. Its just safer for me and everyone else to excercise and socialize them elsewhere.

Wow, um, ok....lots of edits here.

Anywho...I also have a dog who happens to excite easily, have high prey drive, be somewhat dominant, and not be one to stand down from a confrontation.  He is not dog park material either.  That doesn't mean he's aggressive, or your dog is aggressive.  I think the point is that there are things about a dog's temperament you cannot change, you just need to find something that motivates your dog and work on bringing out the strengths.  Going to a dog park would just be totally unnecessary stress for me and my dog.  It's not something he enjoys or will ever enjoy, and I'm not out to prove anything by doing extensive training and behavior mod just to have the dog go to the dog park and completely ignore all the other dogs (b/c that's what would happen, with my dog at least, he's just not into making passing acquaintances with a dozen other dogs).

Whatever you decide to do with the dog, you must set the dog up for success, every time.  At this point there is nothing to be gained at the dog park.  The goal is not to call your dog's attention back to you but never have it waiver in the first place.  You don't want to stop a reaction, you want to prevent one altogether.

If dog socialization is really crucial, I'd start with a reactive dog class or something similar, something in a controlled setting.  Even a dog who is nice most of the time, but sometimes is a bully should not be at the dog park.  It's just not fair for the others (again I'm saying this as someone who's dog does NOT belong at the park).  The people and dogs at the park are not there to help train another dog.  A good trainer or behaviorist on the other hand can help setup situations where your dog will succeed and be able to help manage the environment, possibly bring in other dogs that have certain temperament traits which will help.  A CGC class might work too, since there is a dog greeting involved in the test.

Personally I just do not feel like a dog park is a good place for training.  Many do not even allow food or toys so there's no way to reward.  It's just unfair for the dog being trained and the other dogs.

dax702

Stardog85 was the ONLY person with a constructive reply, and for that I say thank you.  I believe that any dog can be trained.  She's very happy, very energetic and there's just a few things that trigger the dominance/aggression.  She's fine in the park most of the time, and that's why I think she can be broken of these few habits. Anyways, I learned my lesson here, I'm sure not everyone on the forum is like those women, but it happens in every kind of discussion group; always a small core group of know-it-all people who offer nothing constructive. I will check out those books, thanks.

You just got more red ink in one thread than I've gotten in a year, so not sure if I should even bother, but I see your membership is still active, so here goes...

Any dog can be trained to perform certain skills, often in the presence of things they fear, but if your dog did not receive adequate socialization as a young puppy (between age 8-16 weeks of age), she may always be leery of some novel stimuli, including some other dogs, and reactivity such as you describe is usually based in fear.  If she has been bitten in the past, she may be fearful just based on those experiences.  While you may be able to desensitize or counter-condition her behavior, you may not ever be able to make her truly comfortable and happy in that environment.  If you were fearful of snakes, and I was able to "train" you to sit still in their presence and not react, would you truly want to voluntarily be in the vicinity of snakes?  Maybe not.  So, sometimes, the desire to be in the park with your friends and their dogs could be construed by others to be a bit selfish in the context of having a dog that may be able to do eventually do it, but probably will never really like it.  I always like to say love the dog you have, not the one you wish you had, and then just do the best you can.  They all teach us something, and this dog may make you much better at clicker training, and you may see some progress, but you always have to weigh the cost to the dog, as well as the benefit to yourself.  Since I don't know your dog, I can't say how serious this is, or how much progress you could make, but the overriding issue here is to be very conscious of not doing any harm, either to your dog or to another dog or person.  Training of this type does not start at the dog park anyway, it starts at home, and you build the level of distraction slowly, always working just under the threshold at which the dog reacts badly.  And, it can take a very long time.  Good book: Click to Calm by Emma Parsons.  If you need to learn the basics first, go to www.clickerlessons.com.  

Since you live in Vegas, this might be a good resource for you. It's not clicker training specific, but it's a free class offered at the Dog Fancier's park there in Vegas on Dog Park Etiquette.  Says they will offer it the second Weds of every month.

http://www.youtube.com/user/fredhassen#p/u/1/FcqQHwqccBI 

To quote the caption on the video (which was taken just a couple of days ago, featured on Channel 13 news), "The free dog park etiquette classes are not about teaching dog obedience, but rather teaching owners how to manage their dog's energy better in the dog park to prevent potential problems from developing."  Could be a compliment to the training you're doing, after you've got solid obedience.  There are a lot of other videos on that channel for Dog Park Obedience tips, like this one for "neutralizing possible problems" - http://www.youtube.com/user/fredhassen#p/u/5/CMG76_Xvq5w

 Can all dogs be trained? Of course! Can all dogs be taught to enjoy all situations? No.

Dogs are individuals. Some dogs don't like swimming. Some dogs only like playing ball, and some only like playing frisbee. Some like playing in big groups, and some like playing one on one. A LOT of this is predisposition based on genetics. You can encourage ball drive, frisbee drive, playing in water, but you can never make a dog who hates something fall in love with it. Some dogs will NEVER love a dog park setting. None of mine have. I just don't take them. It's not the end of the world. There are plenty of other settings they can play, with other dogs, and enjoy themselves.

 I agree with Spiritdogs, Click to calm is  a good book to read on this situation.

If I were in that situation ( I am NOT a dog trainer btw), I agree with others I would start at home. Working on having your dog pay attention to you, then slowly adding distractions. I think the next step up from that would be to have a friend ( with a calm/non reactive dog, that your dog does not know) and do some exercises in that book - basically having that dog in the vincinity - depends on your dog's threshold, it could be 10' it could be 100 yards, it just depends. And clicking for calm behavior, looking away, then looking at the dog with no reaction. Slowly moving your dog closer to the other one & repeating the process, until your dog can be near the new dog with no reaction, and maybe even getting a short sniff. If at anytime your dog has a melt down, you went to fast, back up ( i.e. move back to where your dog was comfortable) and start again, this could take hours, days, weeks, maybe even months.

in the long run you would be able to apply the same thing to the dog park ( not actually IN the park yet) but maybe from the parking lot - find out where your dog's threshold is. Maybe he can only be within sight of the other dogs to break his threshold or maybe he's ok until you get 10' away from the gate.

As for eventually being in the park itself ( after mastering the above scenarios - with lots of proofing - i.e. other dogs on the first example, different settings, coming from differen't sides of the dog park - dogs do not generalize well - so you have to make sure he's cool with all sorts of stimili & angles), I can't really help you, my knowledge doesn't go that far LOL, but like other said you would want your dog to be at a level where praise only would be the 'treat' and not to bring food treats or valuable toys into the park.

 also just start really reading your dog, what look does he get on his face when he gets nervous or anxious, how is his posture ( every dog is different with all of this so I can't give you too many examples), but learn to read when he is uncomfortable so he doesn't get to the point of a melt down/panic or bite.

I already know my personal dog isn't park material - she has a meltdown just seeing another dog - but I've come to realize that is her default reaction with everything - if she's afraid of it, she attempts to let it know how 'bad' she is by acting tough. but really she's just unsure and afraid. Clicker training will help build their confidence not only in themselves, but in their understanding of what you want from them.

I agree with taking classes also, my girl so far  has been pretty reactive around other dogs ( new ones, she's great with the ones she knows) but in the class we took ( positive training), she learned that it was ok that there was a dobe puppy 5' away from her and learned to focus on me.

 I hope that helps 

miranadobe

Since you live in Vegas, this might be a good resource for you. It's not clicker training specific, but it's a free class offered at the Dog Fancier's park there in Vegas on Dog Park Etiquette.  Says they will offer it the second Weds of every month.

http://www.youtube.com/user/fredhassen#p/u/1/FcqQHwqccBI 

To quote the caption on the video (which was taken just a couple of days ago, featured on Channel 13 news), "The free dog park etiquette classes are not about teaching dog obedience, but rather teaching owners how to manage their dog's energy better in the dog park to prevent potential problems from developing."  Could be a compliment to the training you're doing, after you've got solid obedience.  There are a lot of other videos on that channel for Dog Park Obedience tips, like this one for "neutralizing possible problems" - http://www.youtube.com/user/fredhassen#p/u/5/CMG76_Xvq5w

For the OP, it's important to note that Fred Hassen is a trainer who uses shock collars on just about every dog, and that isn't even close to what clicker trainers do.  So, if you are not inclined to want to use that equipment on your dog, you may want to find another option.

Watch the videos - none of them are about using any tool to train the dogs. They're about using the obedience (however it's accomplished) to resolve potential energy issues at the dog park.

As I said, the classes are not about teaching obedience - they're about teaching you how to manage your dog's energy in the park.

dax702

Your reply was rather non-constructive and pointless. I'm here because I want to help her and you tell me you'd never take her back? Sorry but I don't give up as easily as you.

I'm sorry you found my post non-constructive - but as someone who has HAD a dog attacked in a park - by a dog that just got too excited and uncontrollable - I DO NOT TAKE IT LIGHTLY when someone says they are bringing their untrained, reactive dog to a park.

I've had plenty of great park experiences, but it only takes ONE dog like the dog that attacked my aussie, and dogs like yours, to ruin another dog, and another persons good time.

What are you going to do when your dog does this to a dog that wont take it - and fights back? I hope you're prepared to front those emergency bills and a possible lawsuit.

Dog parks are NOT for every dog.