Wales Bans Shock Collars

spiritdogs

Even this animal hospital, despite the fact that they think a shock collar is okay in some very limited circumstances, suggests that no one use them on dogs except under the guidance of a *qualified* animal behaviorist (which means Grad Degree or DVM): http://www.bondanimalhospital.com/collars.shtml

An extremely "qualified animal behaviorist", who is board certified from the American College of Veterinary Behaviorists, is the one who medicated a friend's dog and told them to "never leave him alone in the house again" for his SA.  They chose to train instead (using balanced methods) and the dog's SA was resolved sans meds.

Two more qualified veterinary animal behaviorists  - from vet hospitals - medicated a dog to the point of epileptic seizures.  They chose to train with balanced methods and THAT dog's SA was resolved, among other behavioral problems. 

There are plenty of "qualified" DVMs that many of our own members on this board have their own horror stories of them doing things to their animals that resulted in more harm than good.

This link

spiritdogs

http://www.itchmo.com/dog-injured-by-anti-bark-collar-at-kennel-2157

So, the fact that you used it really illustrates my own point that I've made here a dozen times that the so-called "burn" marks are rubbing, not electrical shock burns, so, thank you for that link.

The pics posted on Facebook - again, we can show you dogs with embedded flat collars, too - that is clear misuse of whatever tool they were using - although I suspect from the fact that it's sitting in one spot only, that it could have been a bark collar.  If people misuse bark collars to the point of cruelty then I believe they should be punished under animal cruelty laws.  If this is a rub mark from a bark collar, they were NOT using it according to the instructions, I can be confident of that, because every decent collar out there says to inspect the dog's neck for wear - ie, RUBBING - because the collar must be placed in the same place every time (as opposed to training collars which can be moved around).  Instructions also say not to leave it on the dog constantly for the same reason - rubbing.  I could post pictures of a dog with its cornea ripped and someone could say she was poked by a stick repeatedly.  When, in fact, she went running on her own through the woods and poked herself.  Pictures do not tell a full story, and what's worse is when the story around them is fabricated.  Like the allegations that Fred Hassen stuck an ecollar on a male dog's penis to elicit a behavior - they showed video even, ran around the internet shouting about it.  Meanwhile, the dog in question was FEMALE.

Like the allegations that Fred Hassen stuck an ecollar on a male dog's penis to elicit a behavior - they showed video even, ran around the internet shouting about it.  Meanwhile, the dog in question was FEMALE.

And so, you think the dog's female gender would make it OK to shock her on her belly because she lacks a penis???? 

spiritdogs

Like the allegations that Fred Hassen stuck an ecollar on a male dog's penis to elicit a behavior - they showed video even, ran around the internet shouting about it.  Meanwhile, the dog in question was FEMALE.

And so, you think the dog's female gender would make it OK to shock her on her belly because she lacks a penis???? 

miranadobe

Two more qualified veterinary animal behaviorists  - from vet hospitals - medicated a dog to the point of epileptic seizures.

The same people that want to ban the ecollars should ban medicines as well, used improperly can even cause death . This ban is totally dumb and reinforced by human imagination

spiritdogs

It's not a "stim", it's a shock.  The embedded collar is from neglect, but you shock your dog out of love???  Sorry, not buying it, and if I ever get the chance to vote on these things, I'll do the same thing they did in Wales.

Politically i am never in favour of bans. But i think E collars are way over used and way over rated. After doing quite a bit of study, and being suprised at how slow such a "magic all in one tool is" to train some things, there are two corrolarres that interest me. Pretty well nowhere that you put these things on a dog will do anything other than produce disruptive levels of currents in the dogs cranial area. I am guessing here, but the brain can cope on two ways, shut down for a while (milliseconds we are talking) or go into chaos. we sometimes see chaotic nonsensical behaviour with high levels so may be it is the former?

miranadobe

spiritdogs

Like the allegations that Fred Hassen stuck an ecollar on a male dog's penis to elicit a behavior - they showed video even, ran around the internet shouting about it.  Meanwhile, the dog in question was FEMALE.

And so, you think the dog's female gender would make it OK to shock her on her belly because she lacks a penis???? 

  Anne, do you even know why a veterinary behaviorist might place one on the belly?  I do, but I want to know if you do.  Because if you did, you wouldn't be asking this question.  Unless you're trying to be incendiary, in which case your question doesn't require a response.

Who's being incendiary?  Not you, surely, with your condescension.

In any case, the behaviorists I know do not use e-collars at all, not on the neck, the belly, or anywhere else, and one of the most highly respected behaviorists, Karen Overall, went so far as to write this statement: http://www.hollysden.com/say-no-to-shock-collars.htm#Statement_by_Karen_Overall,_DVM

Clearly, we have a difference of opinion, but I am not trying to be incendiary - the issue apparently is inflammatory enough on its own. 

 THIS TOPIC IS BEING LOCKED FOR 24 HOURS TO ALLOW EVERYONE TO COOL OFF. 

When it is reopened I expect everyone to remember to post with respect towards our fellow members, this is the warning. 3 edits = suspension. 3 suspensions = permanent ban.

Hi!  We are big believers in doing all training in public because what good is a successful training program if you have to hide it?   If anyone has any questions on what we do and how I train, I do a new/different dog training video every single day on youtube!  The channel is www.youtube.com/fredhassen  On that channel, it has everything from appearances on Animal Planet, The Outdoor Channel, ESPN, and seminars at Veterinarian Schools, Humane Society's and any sort of training public appearance that one can imagine.  There are also videos with Veterinarian clients and their dogs as well.  Hundreds of videos to sort through.   Here is also the Point/Counterpoint version of Dr. Overall's article:  http://www.sitmeanssit.com/dog-training-articles/karen-overall-article/

Interesting that on one UK blog comment you have said that you use clickers and food rewards for teaching "tricks" but that for reliability off leash you need an e-collar.  Could you please tell me what the heck the difference is between teaching a dog to weave through your legs or teaching a dog to come?  Both are just behaviors, and if you can reliably teach a behavior, you can reliably teach ANY behavior that the dog is physically capable of doing.  To say that a so called trick behavior is somehow "less than" heel, or stay, or turn on the light switch, is patently ridiculous.  One quadrant of operant conditioning is suddenly not as effective as another?  All are effective, it's just that some are more humane than others, and frankly, I'm not willing to squelch my dog's willingness to offer novel behaviors in favor of learned helplessness.  With the former, I get the capability to teach complex tasks, and some brilliance and joy in the dog's demeanor.  With the latter, I would simply have stressed obedience.  Not my idea of a relationship with another sentient being.

I'd rather watch Emily Larlham videos - at least her dogs aren't in pain while they train.

Come to think of it, this is a clicker trained dog in an obedience trial championship.  Note the lack of stress...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UNkulMLwFpI&feature=player_embedded#!

spiritdogs

I'd rather watch Emily Larlham videos - at least her dogs aren't in pain while they train.

Your definition of pain is what?  I don't know about you, but even when I was a kid and touched a piece of grass to the pasture fence, it was more than just a tingle.  Fred Hassen says it himself on his videos, the Sit Means Sit collar is adjustable, which is why he says it's better than a pager collar.  And, if there was never any intention of causing sufficient pain to make the dog alter its behavior, then he wouldn't need anything more than a "pager" now would he?  

We are never going to agree on this subject, so what's really the point of going on with this thread.  It's a bit like arguing the abortion issue.  

spiritdogs

I don't know about you, but even when I was a kid and touched a piece of grass to the pasture fence, it was more than just a tingle.

and you do know about me, because I've told you myself that I have also touched a horse fence, as have others here who have also used an ecollar. 

miranadobe

(you know we've argued about horse fencing versus ecollars enough to be firmly established they are NOT the same)

spiritdogs

We are never going to agree on this subject, so what's really the point of going on with this thread. 

I'm another who is against bans that rid of tools or methods. If E collars are banned then the people who are abusing their dogs with it are just going to continue abusing their animals but with their hand or who knows what else. Just because they will no longer have the E collars doesn't mean they will instantly see the wrong in mistreating animals and they will continue with ignorance with or without E collars.

People who love their dogs and use them correctly and get results will then lose a useful tool.I have used an Ecollar before and my dogs are not damaged, are not scared of me and function very well. My main tools are clicker, voice tone and positive reinforcement but I use all tools because I have different dogs who respond differently to different tools. I dont think banning of tools and or methods will stop the people who are abusing animals, I think they will just abuse and misuse them another way. Just my opinion and I respect others who will feel the opposite.

miranadobe

 You initiated the thread.  You perpetuated it by responding to Fred.  I am not looking to agree with you - we don't need to, in order to discuss your support of banning my rights to own and use an ecollar.  Every time someone initiates a thread that threatens the rights of others - banning tools, banning breeds, etc, etc, I will be there.

Um, I think it was Fred who perpetuated the thread.  Wonder how he found it so quickly on his first posting visit here - not even an intro first or pictures of his dog...

But, I digress.  I just want to be sure that people understand that your sentiment expressed above should not in any way be construed to imply that I support breed bans, which I do not.  I was the person who initiated the NON- breed specific legislation that was proposed here in MA by asking my local legislator to sponsor it, which he did.  I did this as a way to head off those who were planning to write a similar law with BSL included.

Also, more reading for those who still haven't decided how they feel about this issue:

http://www.4pawsu.com/IAABC_Ecollar.pdf

http://www.ust.is/media/ljosmyndir/dyralif/Trainingdogswithshockcollar.pdf

Nice list of the "cons": http://www.puppyplease.com/shockcollars.html

Among other things, an account of one human's self test: http://www.hollysden.com/say-no-to-shock-collars.htm

spiritdogs

Um, I think it was Fred who perpetuated the thread.  Wonder how he found it so quickly on his first posting visit here - not even an intro first or pictures of his dog...