Is it a Pack or a Family?

    • Gold Top Dog

    Is it a Pack or a Family?

     Interesting perspective on dogs as opportunists and not potential tyrants: http://lifeasahuman.com/2010/pets/dogs/the-myth-of-alpha-dogs/

    • Gold Top Dog

    Interesting input from the Coppingers, as always. I think what is also important is the data and observations of L. David Mech, the premiere researcher of wolves in their natural habitat. Most "packs" are actually families, not groups of disparate wolves. As such, the cubs will eventually mature and go start their own "pack."

    Dogs differ socially from wolves. Wolves rarely form "packs" or groups with stranger wolves, beyond the original selection of mate process. Dogs, however, can form groups over the course of their lifetimes with other dogs, same or different breeds, as well as with difference species. Hence, Shadow and Jade sometimes sleep together on the double recliner, sometimes, side by side.

    Which, to me, doesn't mean the dog is more "pack"-oriented than a wolf, just different in social behavior.

    • Gold Top Dog

    Ian Dunbar calls what dogs do, when free to choose, "loose, transitory associations."   See this article by Jean Donaldson for more on the Romanian dogs that did not form packs:

    http://www.jeandonaldson.com/jeans-blog-mainmenu-51/64-are-dogs-pack-animals

     

    • Gold Top Dog

    That's a perfect phrase. Loose, transitory associations. And it is still different behavior from wolves. I highlight that because, as you know, some people fancy that dogs are simple wolves that mind us.

     

    • Gold Top Dog
    The only thing I would add is that control is absolutely the best way a stressed animal can make themselves feel less stressed. I have seen a dog or two that is quite intent on controlling every action of a dog they live with, and the controlling dog is the anxious, insecure one. My old girl Penny used to be like this. The more anxious she was about another dog the more controlling she attempted to be. Inevitably, her controlling behaviour would drive the other dog up the wall, it would snap and tell her off, and she abandoned the strategy then and there with that dog forever more. I never did decide if she abandoned it because it wasn't working anymore or if she abandoned it because she actually didn't feel so anxious now that she knew where she stood and how far this dog could be pushed.
    • Gold Top Dog

    Anyone interested in the pack vs. family discussions should really look into the info on www.nonlineardogs.com 

    It's great reading!

    • Gold Top Dog

    Kim_MacMillan
    look into the info on www.nonlineardogs.com 

     

    "Scientists have been studying the wrong animal, and they've been doing it the wrong way.  They
    study dogs under artificial conditions. They ignore everything they can't count.  This means they
    have failed to ask some of the most important questions."

    I like this one, so every "scientific" paper that is presented regarding dogs is wrong. Who should i believe then?

    I dont think a dog really cares what the group he lives in it's called

    • Gold Top Dog

    espencer
    I dont think a dog really cares what the group he lives in it's called

    The Nonlinear dog information actually has nothing to do with what the group is called. It's about the whole foundation of the idea of the "group" to begin with, and what it means, or more specifically, what it doesn't mean. And this research (which is, by the way, published) points more to that dogs aren't "pack animals" whatsoever, and it questions the entire being of the pack theory. And it questions it in a very valid way.

    • Gold Top Dog

    Some of what I like about the non-linear dog theory is the organization from bottom up. A lead dog is leading because the others are following. Corvus' description of her dog, Penny, in another thread is a good example. Penny would try to "lord" it over other dogs. They would put up with it for a while. And then snap back and she would abandon that line of thought. The dogs were deferring to her "lead" at the time because it suited them, until it no longer appealed to them. Also, dogs left alone that don't get along will eventually stake out their own range of territory. So, from what I see, dogs avoid confrontation when possible and follow another dog when it suits them.

    One of the interesting things from that theory is that when one dog is belly up and the other dog stands over, he thinks it is the lying dog that is superior, having unobstructed access to the underside of the standing dog. I'm still thinking about that one, but it is valuable, in speaking to the fluidity of dog relationships.

    The neighbors caddy-corner to me have two Border Collies and a Healer mix. The mama BC is bossy and she intially tried to boss the Healer. He wouldn't put up with her brusque ways. As long as she treats him with "respect," he will follow her across the yard, let her lead the charge to the fence, whatever. But she has learned not to try and nip-herd him, which is her preferred style. She leads because he follows.