poo training....big problem

Sorry -- you're assuming too much here.  You're assuming she *understands* that she's supposed to elminate outside.  All SHE has figured out is that she eliminates when you aren't around!! 

Dogs are **very** immediate.  If she goes and you aren't around then it's fine!  The fact that you appear, perhaps hours later, and point to her waste on the floor and are unhappy?  She simply thinks you don't like HER -- dogs identify with their waste -- that is HER smell, HER scent ... the essence of HER -- the fact that you object to ***where*** she put it?  It never occurs to her!!

Bichons mature late anyway -- they are notoriously not easy to housetrain.  You have to leash this dog TO you and keep track of it every single instant.  When you notice she is sniffing around or circling -- get her outside **that instant**.  Take her to that place you want her TO go and wait for her.   Keep her on leash -- by controlling where she goes is the only sure way to get the idea across.

When she has an accident in the house go put her in another room while you clear up.  Pick up the waste and go outside and put the paper towel with the waste down ON the ground.  Then go get her on leash and show her you have MOVED it outside.  Not here -- out **there** is where you want it. 

But you can't just leave her unsupervised (at night or any other time) and expect her to "understand" that she's not supposed to elminate when you aren't there.  The very fact that she gets away with it (in your absence) is simply reinforcement to her that it's FINE to do that.

Two papers?  I hope you don't think for an instant that she's going to "get it" that one if for pee and another is for ***.  She won't.  And often they will simply walk a few feet doing one and then the other.  So far there isn't anything you've mentioned that indicates that she's been *taught* to elminate on the paper at all. 

There's nothing at all "inate" that tells a dog "go here -- not there". 

The fact that she simply goes out of your sight tells me she's simply learned NOT to go in front of you at all.  You rectify that by putting her on leash 24/7 so you can direct her to go where you *want* her to go and then praise her when she does. 

All very interesting.

I assume that she relates praise received for doing it outside with the fact of doing it outside (she looks at me over her shoulder to make sure I'm watching!!)

I'm pleased (relatively) to hear that bichons mature late and are not easy to housetrain...there's hope yet.

I do take her out when I see her sniffing around for a place to do it. I hadn't thought of taking her on a leash to do it. She associates the leash with walks, and jumps up and down with excitement every time she sees it.  I'll try leaving it on all the time, although it will make it difficult when the two dogs play together, run around together....  They are good company for each other and play well.

You suggest not leaving her unsupervised at night.  By this I assume you mean she should sleep in my room. The last thing I want is for her to get accustomed to sleeping with me (not literally 'with' of course). Even if she were in my room, I'd be asleep, not supervising

Although I feel I've probably made a mistake by putting paper down at night, as she now thinks it permissible to do it indoors, she does actually pee on the paper at night, and only on the paper.  If my son is home, he'll be up to 2 or 3 am watching tv, and lets the dogs out before going to bed.  Then in the morning when I come down, there's nothing on the floor.  But I can't get up every night at 3 am !!!

The process of them learning to "hold it" at night is sometimes weeks, sometimes months long.  And it's gradual -- they don't just suddenly learn TO hold it.  so yeah, you **do** have to get up at night.

From your manner of speaking I assume you aren't in the US -- a crate is VERY helpful at night.  Dogs typically don't like to soil where they sleep so getting them to sleep in a small area tends to help teach them to hold it -- or let you know when they need to go.

And yes, by ALL means, I ***DO*** mean to have the dog sleep in your room.  Dogs are den animals -- their "pack" is extremely important to them.  And them learning to communicate to you during the night that they need to go out is part and parcel of them learning TO hold it and learning *where* to go.

No -- if they think they are about to be praised yes, they'll wag their tail -- but no, in dog logic it really does *not* make sense to them inside vs. outside (and think about it -- we humans DO go inside!!!) -- it simply means she's not afraid TO go in front of you at that moment.  (and does she defecate outside in your presence?  In the yard?  On walks??) -- as I said, they make very very tight associations -- and unfortunately most of us don't think in "dog" well enough to really figure out what associations they ARE making.

Leaving an untrained dog on leash in the house is a good thing -- but honestly?  What will often cut the training time down considerably is to actually put the handle of the leash over and belt and put it around your waist!!  That way you can keep track of the little bugger ALL the time and not have the dog escape to the other room to poop in peace! (which is honestly exactly how they think of it!!)

Yes, our dogs sleep in our bedroom -- they have their own beds and until they are reliably housetrained they sleep in their crates.  If you have another human who lives with you (son, or whatever) then they might agree to help you housetrain.  But there is no way a dog is magically going to learn to "hold it" unless you are there to catch them (preferably BEFORE they go) to remind them to "hold it a little longer" and then listen for them to settle down ... OR get up and go take them out. 

I never use paper -- because exactly as you said it's confusing -- it makes going inside "ok" and even "GOOD DOG" sometimes -- soooooo what's the deal about the paper?  They tend to generalize to anything absorbent and square -- a newspaper, or that folded sweater on the chair! 

ok, all the housetraining instructions for during the day are perfectly practical, and this is basically what I'm doing. No paper around during the day, only at night, as it helps to limit where she does it. The 'accidents' during the day are not frequent, mainly if I'm not attentive. The problem is over night.

She sleeps with the other dog in the kitchen, either in her own bed or cuddled up with him in his, and generally poos as far away as possible from where they sleep. I have no way of knowing at what time she wakes in the morning. I only know that when she hears signs of me moving around upstairs (toilet flushing, blinds opening), she'll bark. So even if she sleeps till she hears me, by the time I've put some clothes on, never mind washed, got ready etc. (I could always go back up), and made it down to the kitchen, she's had time to do it on the floor, if she hasn't not done so during the night.

last night I let her out for the last time around 12.30. She did a pee and came running for praise, then went off and did poo and came running for praise, and then off again for another poo, and I thought great! In the morning there were 2 fingers of poo on the floor, and she was with her 'I've-done-something-you're-not-going-to-like' expression and posture, which normally in the mornings she doesnt have. When I picked her up to clean her eyes, I smelt poo, I checked her paws, and saw nothing, but she smelled. When I looked under her tail, there was a squashed, dried finger of poo, matted into the hair, where she'd obviously sat/slept on top of it in the bed. So I had to cut it off, there was no other way, and wash her.

This is the first time she's done it where she sleeps, so I'm thinking is the crate idea going to work?? Would I get a crate just for her to sleep (small) or a larger one so they can both sleep together? The other dog is 4, perfectly housetrained, and learnt very quickly

The idea of having her in my bedroom really doesn't appeal at all. I don't want to be part of the pack. If I or my partner need to get up in the night for our own needs, its going to wake her up unnecessarily. My fear is that if she gets used to me being there when she goes to sleep, she's not going to settle down when the time comes to move her back to the kitchen.

monterosa

I don't want to be part of the pack.

 Why did you get a dog then? Also, why can't you set your alarm, so you can take her out to potty at night? Just because you get up at night , doesn't mean she will. She has way to much freedom, some dogs can't handle the freedom of the whole house.

A crate would certainly be worth a try, IMO.  There is no guarantee she did it in her bed.  It may have just got stuck to her hair when she did it, and then she went and sat on it and squashed it.  Even if she did do it in her bed, one incident does not mean that her clean instinct is broken.  She has shown consistently so far that she would prefer to eliminate away from her bed.

If you choose not to crate, you need to confine this puppy when she is not being watched, including at night.  I agree with ^ ^ ^ that she has WAY too much freedom.   Toileting accidents aside, puppies are generally too curious and active to be SAFE if left to roam free.  Stuff can get chewed or ingested, they can get stuck or have stuff topple on them FAR too easily.

When I have a puppy, getting them outside is the first thing I do in the morning.  I stick on a dressing gown and a pair of trainers and we go out into the garden.  Washing and getting dressed waits until AFTER puppy has been outside.  That is important.  Now that ours are adults and know that they are supposed to toilet out there, I can LET them outside, prepare their breakfast, crate them while they eat it and go upstairs to get washed and dressed.  When I come back down, they usually need to be let out again... (they often don't do No2s until after breakfast.)

I crate a puppy in my room at night.  I don't like the idea of dogs in my bedroom permanently, so once they are well house trained, I move the crate gradually away from the bed until it is in it's permanent place in the kitchen.  This is another benefit of using a crate: you can move where the pups sleeps, because they still sleep in the crate.  The consistency helps a lot, as does the fact that you are able to move them gradually, over a few days.  Having the puppy in your room will very likely help you to get through the problems you are experiencing.  With that in mind:

monterosa

The idea of having her in my bedroom really doesn't appeal at all.

Does it appeal more, or less, than the idea of picking up her poop every morning?

Lastly, she seems to poop a LOT.  It might be worth looking at her diet and adjusting it.  It won't suddenly magically make her always poo outside, but if she was to be switched to something more digestible she would probably poop LESS in general, which would mean she would also, by default, be pooping less indoors.  Without knowing what you feed I can't say for sure, it's just a thought.

 You make the puppy wait until your dressed to go outside? I throw on a robe and slippers and go.

monterosa

I don't want to be part of the pack

I hate to break it to you -- but you already ARE!!  It's part and parcel of having a dog.  You ARE their pack - you ARE their family.  Sure, when you wake up it may wake them up but then everyone settles and goes back to sleep. 

It's interesting -- you're incredibly disassociated from the dog -- and that IS unusual for a dog owner. 

And to be honest, in order TO train them to do the things you want and to be a comfortable part of the household you often ahve to do things you may not really like to do.  It's part OF dog-ownership.  You just plain can't train a dog to 'Hold it" all night long in absentia. 

I'm not trying to be a brash American (my husband is British) but whether you intended to or not, you *are* family to them.  A cat may hold itself aloof -- a dog doesn't.  You typically are their sunshine and their reason for being -- their day is built around you and your company.  And no -- a dog generally can't wait until you get dressed and get your day organized before you go let them out.  Particularly not a young dog having trouble holding it anyway.

Have YOU ever tried staying in bed and not having to go relieve yourself while your partner/significant other or whoever takes an hour or so to finish what they're doing -- while you're in bed with a full body?? (which is why a lot of us choose a home with 2 bathrooms?)  This is a baby -- and one that has ... thus far ... been unable to figure out what YOU want. 

Please have a heart and give this pup the direction it needs.  When they are young, in particular, they need to be WITH you so you *can* train them.  And then ... later on ... as Chuffy says, you can move them further from the bedroom if that's your desire.

Dogs and humans do *not* think alike.   Unfortunately you are making assumptions that are just not logical in dog-thinking.  And there's going to be no real success unless you attempt to understand how the pup thinks.  YES there is "hope" (referring to your comment above) but only if there is a meeting of minds.

tiffy

 You make the puppy wait until your dressed to go outside?

No, I don't. 

no no, no, you're misunderstanding me. I don't get dressed first while the puppy waits, but I have to put SOMETHING on, I can't wander around starkers, at least not in winter... and not out in the garden!!   I'm beginning to get a complex about not wanting a dog in my bedroom.  I don't actually know anyone who sleeps with the dog in their bedroom.  At what time would you suggest then that I set my alarm?

As for the food, the content of what my babe eats, which, as I said, is called April, by Affinity Petcare, is as follows:
30% protein
16% fat
2% crude cellulose
7.5% inorganic matter
1.3% calcium
1.1. phosphorous
8% humidity
Vitamins A, D3, E, E1, E2, E4, E5, E14, Zinc, Selenium, Iron, Iodine, Copper, Managanese
Foods included are chicken, maize, wheat, egg, oats, fish oil, beet pulp, spinach.

According to the packet, up to 5 kilos, at 4 months, should be eating 100g per day. She's 2.8 kg and 7 months (in 4 days time).

Is this suitable feed? It is creating an excess amount of poo? Is this why she does so much over night?

monterosa

I'm beginning to get a complex about not wanting a dog in my bedroom.  I don't actually know anyone who sleeps with the dog in their bedroom. 

Now you do! 

JackieG

monterosa

I'm beginning to get a complex about not wanting a dog in my bedroom.  I don't actually know anyone who sleeps with the dog in their bedroom. 

 

Now you do! 

 

Try in the bedroom with the two of us in uncomfortable positions to accommodate the dog's comfort.

Chuffy

tiffy

 You make the puppy wait until your dressed to go outside?

 

No, I don't. 

Not you Chuffy, but you knew that, huh?

Chuffy

tiffy

 You make the puppy wait until your dressed to go outside?

 

No, I don't. 

Not you Chuffy, but you knew that, huh?