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I need some help with Finn :(

Posted : 2/14/2010 4:49:13 PM

I got Finn at 4 months last May. He will be a year at the end of this month. He started in training classes in June/July. He took a basic class, an advanced/CGC class, and we are now in our second rally class. I absolutely love working with him. He is so much fun! I also took him to parks and for walks on trails and he would meet other dogs and people on leash. The last thing I wanted was another leash reactive dog. Benny is pretty bad on leash. I never took him and Benny out together because I didn't want Finn learning bad behaviors. He did great all summer. He met dogs and people of all sorts and had very few issues. At times his hackles would go up and he would get stiff and we would just move on.

Back in September right around the time he earned his CGC, I noticed him displaying some odd behaviors. He was not tolerating any dog coming up to greet him while on leash. His hackles would immediately go up and he would stand very tall and stiff and he would growl and lunge. The last time we were at the park in September he attcked a blue colored collie. Not bad, he didn't leave any marks just scared the crap outta me! The collie's mom was fine. End of our dog park adventures! I also like to take him to play with other dogs at my work. He does fine, but there always seems to be one dog he just does not like and he will go after it. Finn is only about 33 pounds. He has NEVER drawn blood and he stops himself before I have a chance to intervene, but it makes me really sad to see him act like this. He has never had even so much as a scuffle with Max and Benny, but with other dogs, there is no way to predict how he will feel about them. Obviously my choice here is don't take him to work. There is no reason to put other's people's dogs at risk.

My other problem is with people. This is my bigger concern, because I can manage a dog who doesn't like every dog he meets, but he needs to like people. He has never bit or tried to bite a person. However, when we meet new people, Finn flips out. He will bark at them and back away, only after he goes up to them and sniffs them. There are some people he is completely fine with and they can come right up to him and love on him all they want, but people he has only met once or twice, he is totally not comfortable. Again, hackles come up, he backs away, and barks. This does not make training class fun at all. I want to compete with him in rally, but if he can't be around people OR dogs there is no chance of it.

I had some private lessons with my trainer. She has helped me a lot, but with my schedule (which will be totally less cluttered at the end of April) I am having a hard time actually driving somewhere to work on these issues.

I'm sure I left some stuff out...but I am drawing a blank now, so if you have any questions about things, let me know.

What would you do? What can I do to help him be more comfortable in public? I thought I was doing all the right things when I first got him, but obviously something went wrong. Crying I am so upset about this. Before I adopted him he had a lot of homes, so maybe something went wrong early on?? He started out somewhere in Georgia, was shipped up to PA to live in a foster home, was returned to the shelter (for being too rough with the womans other pets???), and then stayed at the shelter for a month before I adopted him. I'm not sure how long he was in Georgia, or what that shelter was like or how long he was with the foster family or what went on there.

Thanks for any input.

spiritdogs

Posted : 2/15/2010 2:14:20 PM

I think you probably did try to do everything right - the only thing that went wrong might have been that he didn't get adequate socialization during the critical period (age 8-12 weeks). You may just have gotten to him too late.

See if Grisha Stewart will be coming to your area for a BAT training seminar. She runs Ahimsa Dog Training in Seattle, and has done some nice work with dogs like this. There's a 90 minute video available at her site.

georgie4682

Posted : 2/16/2010 7:45:39 AM

spiritdogs

I think you probably did try to do everything right - the only thing that went wrong might have been that he didn't get adequate socialization during the critical period (age 8-12 weeks). You may just have gotten to him too late.

Thanks for your advice. I will definitely check out her site. I did take a quick look and she isn't coming anywhere near me. :( Even if I got him too late, why was he behaving normally and then gradually shifted into this scared of people kind of guy? I would have thought that would have happened from the beginning. Maybe he was showing signs of it coming and I just didn't see them?

3girls

Posted : 2/16/2010 9:26:58 AM

You said it started around September? He was around 9months old at the time? That is around the time period for another fear stage...

Have you tried any of the exercises from "Control Unleashed" or "Click to Calm" ? If he's food motivated at all, those should help somewhat.

Why does he have to like people to be able to compete in rally? My trainer is having me work on just having my girls tolerate people to able to do rally and such.

georgie4682

Posted : 2/16/2010 9:31:37 AM

I know we could be asked to leave if he displays any sort of "off" behavior right? I just worry that he might spazz out before we get in the ring and then not be able to compete? I could be wrong and I could probably manage it as long as people don't try to come up to him and pet him. I do have click to calm, just never got around to reading it. I will have to do that, I'm sure there are great ideas in there.

Liesje

Posted : 2/17/2010 12:04:48 PM

He doesn't have to interact with anyone for rally as long as he's OK with a judge being in the ring (and sometimes behind him, but never close enough to touch him).

If this is a new thing, personally I would give him some time and space, don't push too hard right away or it might backfire and make a mountain out of a molehill. He may just be maturing into a dog that is more aloof, but since he is still young and impressionable, I'd focus on things that he likes and that build his confidence and not stress this issue too much until he has enough confidence to work through it.

georgie4682

Posted : 2/17/2010 1:15:46 PM

Liesje

He doesn't have to interact with anyone for rally as long as he's OK with a judge being in the ring (and sometimes behind him, but never close enough to touch him).

If this is a new thing, personally I would give him some time and space, don't push too hard right away or it might backfire and make a mountain out of a molehill. He may just be maturing into a dog that is more aloof, but since he is still young and impressionable, I'd focus on things that he likes and that build his confidence and not stress this issue too much until he has enough confidence to work through it.

This does make sense. This has been going on for about 6 months now though. He is remembering people better now and seems more comfortable with more people. People just think he is so darn cute and just want to come right up to him and pet him. I try to warn them, but I'm usually too late and they get a nice startling bark from them and then say, "what's wrong with him?" Confused That annoys me to no end!

That makes me feel better about rally. He absolutely loves to work with me and he has learned soooo much in 6 months. I am so proud of my little guy, I would hate to have to give it up. I feel better knowing we can maybe make it work.

Liesje

Posted : 2/17/2010 1:44:50 PM

I know what you mean, people would always try to rush Nikon (or march their dogs right up to his face) while he was going through this reactive/fear stage so honestly, I kept him away for a few months to let it cool off. Too many bad experiences where you lose control and push the dog too far (or are in an environment you can't control) and the dog can develop problems for good. I worked with him at home, around a few people and dogs I knew and trusted, and at this one pet store where I have more control. Because of his breed and his genetics, by nature he is more high strung and is very alert to the environment, so those traits + being immature and having some fear periods could have been a recipe for disaster. Instead, I focused on our bond, just playing with him, doing drive building and positive, motivational games and rewards and let him clear his head for a few months before trying again. Now, he is very outgoing, LOVES people, and is basically bomb-proof. I was also a bit self-conscious because of his size and breed. A GSD having a bit of a reactive fit looks and sounds quite different than say, a Yorkie, lol. Now I take him to pet stores, on walks in the neighborhood, to the park to train, to work (college campus so lots of foot traffic), to my parents house for Superbowl parties and such, etc. We didn't push the issue of socialization and desensitization, I just recognized that a dog like him is always going to be alert to everyone and everything and what he needed was more confidence and assurance that he could trust me. I actually love his temperament, I love an energetic dog with a bit of an "edge", but it's a balancing act making sure he is confident and sure of himself around all people and in a variety of environments. I learned to work with his temperament rather than try to work against it.

Maura

Posted : 2/23/2010 9:43:37 PM

If the problem is really more of a human than dog, you can try to manage the humans. Keep a few dry treats in your pocket. When someone rushes up to you, quickly hand them a treat and give them some instruction (stand up tall and hold out the treat; go down on one knee and hold out the treat,...). Train Finn to do something specific, like sit in front of the person, take the treat, then go to heel. You say something like, "Thank you, he's a bit shy. Please don't pet him, he is in training." This gives people something to do that makes them feel they are interacting with the dog. It also gives Finn a script.

jennie_c_d

Posted : 2/23/2010 9:58:54 PM

FWIW, Emma didn't like strange people or strange dogs to approach her, and she was a rally star Big Smile She'd drawn blood on people and dogs years before she started rally, but became more managable with further training and age. She never got a CD (though she could easily perform all of the exersizes, and then some) because she was a bite risk. Stand for exams always stressed her, and I wanted showing just to be a good time for her. As long as people didn't approach and touch her, she was fine. If they held out a hand, and let her approach, she usually wanted to be petted. I just told people, flat out, "she's working, don't touch her". I taught her, "Go say hi", and if she wanted to, I'd release her to say hi. When we were out, though, she was working, period. Focusing on me was the key to managing her. Finn is just a puppy, so what you allow now will influence his behavior later. I just wouldn't let people approach him, until he's comfortable in the environment, and then, allow HIM to control the interaction. Maybe have them feed him a treat or two, but not pet him.

spiritdogs

Posted : 2/25/2010 3:12:34 PM

georgie4682
spiritdogs

I think you probably did try to do everything right - the only thing that went wrong might have been that he didn't get adequate socialization during the critical period (age 8-12 weeks). You may just have gotten to him too late.

Thanks for your advice. I will definitely check out her site. I did take a quick look and she isn't coming anywhere near me. :( Even if I got him too late, why was he behaving normally and then gradually shifted into this scared of people kind of guy? I would have thought that would have happened from the beginning. Maybe he was showing signs of it coming and I just didn't see them?

He may have experienced an adolescent fear period and had something happen while he was in that stage that made him leery. One thing you can do is set him up so that he gets approached by lots of people who don't look at him and just toss chicken at him;-) Seriously, it often helps to NOT force the dog to interact with people, but also change his emotional response by making him think that whenever people appear, good things happen, and when they disappear, the chicken does, too;-)