Help with housetraining, please!

The first thing you want to do is eliminate medical issues, such as a UTI.  It's entirely possible that she really DOES have to go because she has an infection.

At this point, treat her as if she is a young pup.  Go back to housetraining 101.  In the crate unless she's leashed to you until she "gets" that we go OUTSIDE to go potty.  It really sounds like you've got the basics.  I don't usually scold a pup for an accident, but you CAN say "no, we go POTTY OUTside".  Whatever she does inside should be cleaned with a paper towel and deposited outside where you want her to go.

Be sure that you are using a really good enzyme destroyer, like Natures Miracle or Petastic to remove the odors of what she's already done.

ColleenyBeany

She doesn't seem to have any idea that she *supposed* to go outside, even after 2+ weeks with us. 

 

Dogs don't understand unless they are taught that they should potty only outside.  It's important not to correct her when she has an indoor accident.  As Glenda said, you have to treat her as though she were a 10 week old puppy.  As frustrating as this can be with an adult dog you can achieve success if you are consistent with your praise when she goes outside.

ColleenyBeany

Even when she does go outside, I don't think she's learning that that's where she's actually SUPPOSED to go.

 

Give it time.  You've only had her 2 1/2 weeks.  She hasn't had enough time to acclimate to her new environment.  She may never have lived indoors or she may have lived in an environment that allowed her to potty on surfaces other than grass, etc.  Dogs don't have our feeling of distaste toward their bodily wastes.  To them it's just a natural behavior to go when the urge arises.  Be patient and be calm and neutral when an accident happens.  Notice where she goes when she pees or poos outside and take her to that spot every time you take her outside.  Encourage her with a phrase such as "do your business" or one of your choosing.

If she is peeing extremely often she needs to be vet checked as Glenda said for a UTI.

Housetraining doesn't happen in a few weeks even for puppies that are started from the day they are brought home.  She'll get it, she will.  I love the name Ruby and I would love to see some pic's of your girl.  Please keep us posted on your progress and last but not least, WELCOME to the forum. :)

ColleenyBeany

I don't know if she's ever been housetrained.  She doesn't seem to have any idea that she *supposed* to go outside, even after 2+ weeks with us. 

 

Lots of dogs can be well house trained, and then suddenly forget it all when they move.  It's like they learned they weren't supposed to go in THAT house, but haven't generalised it to ALL houses.  So she MAY have been house trained before, but has learned that it's OK to do it in YOUR house.

You need to rule out a medical issue first - a UTI will make her desperate to pee often and lessend her control.

Then you just treat her like a puppy who has never been house trained - constant supervision.  If you can't keep your eyes ON her, she can be crated (short periods and night times) or left in a secure, easily cleaned area (longer periods - x pen or dog gate might be useful).  When she gets it right, lots of praise and reward.  (A very high value reward that she ONLY gets for Good Potty will help.)When she makes a mistake, NO correction at all - take her outside and reward for anything done out there, crate her out of sight and clean up with an enzymatic cleaner and move the waste to the proper toilet area.

I'm the sister btw.

Couple things. Ruby just had a very thorough vet check at my vet. Pee, poop and blood all checked out great (except for a teeny bit of giardia, which she's since been treated for). :-P And that's the other thing I wanted to point out, that she poops in their house just as easily as she pees, so it doesn't seem to me to be some super strong urge to pee...unless it's the same for pooping.

I told Colleen that if I were having this much trouble housetraining a dog, I'd ask you guys. I have a few books I need to give her that go over housetraining, but they pretty much say to do what she's already doing...

I also thought that she could be expected to understand quicker than she does, but it sounds like you guys don't think that? I thought her still being almost totally unhousetrained after two weeks was kind of surprising considering the amount of work Colleen's been doing with her.. But I've never really housetrained a dog.

And yeah Coll, where are the pictures? Didn't I tell you that's one of the first things they'd ask for? :-D

 My girl Keela wasn't fully (trustworthy) house trained until after age 2 years. We got her at 9 months old. I kept her on a schedule instead of waiting for her to tell me she needed to go out, that way she was set up for success and not failure. Every 2 hours we went out because that was her hold limit. At night time, it was longer, but not by much. If I wasn't right there with her, she was crated. If she didn't go potty on a trip outside, she didn't get to stay out when we went back inside. She went in the crate and I took her back out in about 15 minutes. First thing in the morning she went out. After any meal or play time, she went out. A schedule is going to be very important, regardless of the fact that she is 1 year old. Keela never showed any signs of needing to potty either, and still is very hard to read about what she needs.

At one year of age, and only having been there for 2ish weeks, she may be feeling insecure and not wanting to be out of sight from them - thus the not wanting to go outside without them. Maybe going out on a leash every time until the potty thing gets a little better might help. That way there is more control and knowledge of whether she went or not.

Maybe break out some real high value treats just for going outside and playing in the yard. Make the outside a safe place so that she feels safe to eliminate out there.

Good luck! I know how hair rending it can be!

chelsea_b

I also thought that she could be expected to understand quicker than she does,

 

If she has been housetrained before - yes.  If she was a puppy who had not already previously learned bad habits - yes.

My oldest dog started life as an outdoor dog and had a few years of peeing and pooing pretty much wherever he wanted, whenever he felt the urge.  He had never HAD to hold it.  So he needed a lot of work, and a lot of supervision, and it took time.  In the end, what worked was treating him like a puppy, and using a very high value treat that he ONLY got when he peed and pood outside.  Even now, he is more inclined to just pee somewhere, than "tell you" he needs to go, so he has to be on a schedule and let out reasonably often, to avoid mistakes.

 We had great success with clicker training with Maggie...she'd never seen the inside of a house until we got her...

The first step is to watch her behavior closely! Keep a diary of when, and where she goes. Find out what times she usually has to go or after what activity does she need to go. Are you at home or gone when she has the accidents? Once you find a good pattern you will know when you need to take her outside.

• Is she upset because you are leaving or does she have SA? (seperation anxiety)
• Some dogs will do a "quick" pee or poop when you aren't looking on bad weather days so they dont have to go outside.
• Try keeping a leash on her or only allowing access to a couple rooms instead of the whole house so you can keep an eye on her during the housetraining stage.

When you take her outside, do so on a leash and take her to a certain spot where you would like her to go. Give her a treat when she goes there. If she doesnt go then, go back inside and do it again in 15 or 30 mintues.

When she does have an accident inside, clean it up without fuss and if you catch her in the act say No! and then take her outside to her "spot." Dont yell at her though.

Good Luck!

My feeling is that the word NO in and of itself doesn't tell the dog what you want.  You need to ADD a few words, like potty OUTside in order for the connection to be made.

Mechanical Angel

When she does have an accident inside, clean it up without fuss and if you catch her in the act say No! and then take her outside to her "spot." Dont yell at her though.

 

The word "no" doesn't really achieve anything IME and it isn't necessary.  The cleanest pups I ever trained were NEVER told "no" in connection to house training.  I agree with Glenda, that it is the communicating what you DO want that packs the punch.  In any case, it's not "No Ruby don;t do that there" it's "NO, human, you didn;t watch the dog closely enough!"   

Chuffy

The word "no" doesn't really achieve anything IME and it isn't necessary.  The cleanest pups I ever trained were NEVER told "no" in connection to house training.  I agree with Glenda, that it is the communicating what you DO want that packs the punch.  In any case, it's not "No Ruby don;t do that there" it's "NO, human, you didn;t watch the dog closely enough!"   

Great point! Thank-you! You guys have a lot more expierence than I do with this

ColleenyBeany

She HATES going outside, hates hates hates it, which I think is our biggest problem. 

ColleenyBeany

She does not go to the bathroom on walks, fyi...  She just never has, so our goal is just to get her to go in the backyard.

ColleenyBeany

So in the mornings, I never really pay any attention to her until we get out the back door because otherwise she just refuses to come out... But she'll come out there to get me to pet her.  So, once we get outside, I shut the door, say hello to her, pet her for a minute, and then ignore her until she pees.

This is more than house-training.  Not sure why, but somehow this dog has decided the ONLY place it feels comfortable enough to go is *inside*. 

Likely somehow this dog was scared or abused outside -- does she react the same way going out whatever door you use to go for a walk?

It's really significant that she never elminates on a walk and hates going outside.  Either she was hurt, scared or punished outside so you are probably going to have to desensitize the hatred to outside in order to get her to relax enough TO elimate out there.

I would have her spend very very little time in the crate -- somehow she's learned it's the only place NOT to elminate.

I would tether her to you 100% of the time.  Watch her constantly -- when she begins looking for a spot to go, a bit agitated then head outside immediately.

Let me be more specific.  When the dog screws up, go put it in its crate just long enough for you to clean up.  (a dog's waste is it's identity -- somehow *seeing* you handle its waste is reinforcing).  Take the waste in it's paper towel and go lay it *outside* where you want the dog to elminate. Then I would go get the dog.   

NOTE: I tend not to just train "behaviors" --- in fact that's not the essence of how I deal with dogs.  I try to *teach* them to understand me (and I'm using the word "teach" very specifically instead of just 'train'.  And I think teaching them to stop doing something or make a better choice is as important as training them TO do a thing.  However -- 99% of it is preventing them from screwing up in the first place and providing them with the options you want them to get used to taking

There's a subtle difference in what I'm saying from just "training" a dog to do one particular behavior.  As they grow and age it teaches respect and communication. 

Back to the accident -- once you've "re-located" the waste, go back in and get the dog ON LEASH 

So altho I wouldn't use the word "no" -- I would, on my way past the place where they had an accident, shake my42 head & say "uh uh .. not there" -- I would then take them to the place i *want* them to go and smile and say "go here".

This isn't time to play or spend a lot of time - you are specifically just showing the dog its own waste and that you MOVED it to this spot.  It goes here .. not inside. 

Then go right back inside. 

Next time you even have a hint of a thot that the dog is agitated and *might* need to elminate you go right back outside (as I said -- at my house this dog would be leashed to my belt 100% of the time -- absolutely make it impossible for the dog to come up missing and screw up.  If you're antsy and gotta go *I* need to know that.  NOW ... not after you've screwed up and gone on the floor.

So yeah -- here YOU are learning as well as the dog because the human learning to recognize the dog's cues that it's uncomfortable and needs to elminate is a big huge deal here.  Once the dog realizes you're WATCHING the two of you will develop enough understanding to be successful.

I suspect you are dealing with some training *damage* here -- maybe caused by a UTI or maybe simply by unusual circumstance -- and former owners simply ASSUMING the dog was incorrigible .  Damage in that this dog has somehow learned a huge preference for eliminating inside rather than outside.  It's literally learned the direct opposite of what it should.  This dog is deliberately choosing TO elminate inside.  It's not that this dog doesn't know the difference to hold it until it can go outside.  Nope -- this dog is making a choice.  And it's the wrong one.

Let me tell a story -- I fostered a dog once who was terrified of the phrase "good girl".  Essentially when she did something the human didn't like, he would beat the crap out of her all the while yelling "YOU WILL BE A A**GOOD GIRL**!"  as tho telling her he was making her into a good girl by beating her?

All she learned was to shiver and shake at the words "good girl".

I'm going to make a flying guess here -- I'd guess that your dog likely was left to screw up in the house by an inattentive owner.  HOWEVER -- when the owner *discovered* waste inside the owner probably freaked out and took the dog OUTSIDE to then rant and rave and be nasty. Sooo the dog learned a few things:

1.  Pee & poop inside when no one is around and it's OK!!!  no one notices.  It's safe -- do that again!!

2.  Go outside and you get yelled at and hurt right away!!  So DON'T go outside -- bad stuff happens out there!

3.  NEVER pee or poop *in front of* a human -- they'll freak out!!

So mostly you have re-training to do.  You have to de-sensitize this dog to the outside and show her good things **will** happen out there.  You also have to be incredibly vigilant inside -- don't give her a second to pee or poop behind your back.  In honesty, you will need to *make time* to have her out of the crate and keep yourself aware of what she's doing.

YOU need to get the dog outside before it screws up so you CAN reliably praise it for elminating in the right place.

The other thing that I think is happening is likely tied to it -- a dog sees it's waste as it's mark.  This is **ME**.  When a human sees dog waste **our** reaction is "ewwwwwwwwwwwwww filthy*  So when you point to the waste itself and say "NO" or be displeased -- the dog honestly thinks you don't like THEM ... not their choice of where they *put* it. (That's the reason why I said clean up and move the waste and THEN point to the place and simply say "nuh uh ... not there" and the go directly TO where you moved it and say "YES,  HERE!";). 

 I often think the basic breakdown of communication is because the dog thinks "Oh -- either she doesn't like me or she just plain thinks I"m not supposed TO poop?  Forget that!"

It truly comes down to a choice.  not here ... but there. 

 

Bravo to you for adoping a one year old who was a stray!!  One thing to consider, based on what you've observed so far--Ruby may not have "learned how to learn" yet. Dogs who have been on the loose for awhile may have only learned in a Pavlovian way (classical conditioning--responding to stimuli that evoke an automatic response to a stimulus like startle at a loud noise, pain, fright, etc--survival often depends on this) rather than responding to to operant conditioning (which is what you want to get to). Because she's a bit older, it may take time for her to learn how to learn but it can/will happen.

Thanks so much for the responses.  As Chelsea said, everything was checked, they did a urinalysis, no UTI.  Also, she does poop in the house as well, but it is MUCH easier to catch her when she's about to start pooping, so we usually get her outside before she actually starts.  My theory on why she's peeing so often is actually that because she does it right in front of us, we're interrupting her and taking her outside, and at that point, she won't just start peeing again, so she still has to go again an hour later.  We don't yell at her, but when we see her peeing inside, we do say something like "No Ruby, you pee (or poop) outside" and take her out.  It never occurred to me to move the poop outside to where I want her to go, so I will definitely try that now. (and so, on that same note, we should be cleaning up pee with paper towels and putting those out back too?)   I also will get some of that enzymatic cleaner that was mentioned, because she has some clearly preferred spots inside.

I can be patient, if I knew we were on the right track.  To be honest, I just figured we were not doing it right.  It always seems like she has a good day or two without going in the house once, and then a cluster of accidents, as if that first accident reset all the progress.  In the past few days though, it hasn't been that way, it's just been once every other day or so.  Friday night just before I wrote this post was the last time. 

I do not think this dog was ever abused, honestly.  She adores every person she's ever met and doesn't really have a fear of anything. On walks, if she sees a person coming from 50 feet away, she starts dancing as they get closer, she's so excited.  Our last dog was petrified of the broom, but she tries to eat the broom when I sweep, she pounces on the vacuum when it's on... She's not a scaredy girl.  When I said she hates going outside, I didn't mean that she NEVER does.  She just doesn't like being forced to, and if anyone is standing near the back door, she either refuses to come out, or she darts inside again, clearly scared that we're going to shut her out there alone.  I think that she's afraid that at some point we're going to shut her out and never let her in again. I believe she's either always been an outside dog, or the 5 weeks in the mostly outdoor shelter really screwed her up.  It was chilly and VERY rainy the week before we got her, so it could have just been that, even.  For the past week or so, when our back door is open and it's warm and sunny, she'll go out there and play or lie down as long as the door is open, she's out there lying in the sun right now in fact.  But if I walked near the back door she would jump up and run inside.  That's why we go out there with her every couple of hours, because when she has to go, it's a toss up whether she'll do it out there or in here, it's just wherever she happens to be that minute.  I think that's why the crate has been helping, because it forces her to hold it for periods of time, and then when we let her out again, we take her right outside, so that's where she happens to be when she HAS to go.  She's not sneaky, she doesn't hide, she'll do it while you're playing with her.  So it's not that we're not watching her closely enough, honestly.  If it were just that, I wouldn't be asking for help, I'd be watching her more closely! LOL!  There have only been a couple of times that I've found a surprise anywhere, it's usually while we're looking right at her (or playing with her!). The first couple of days  we had her it was when I wasn't watching, but I quickly realized that I had to watch her all the time.  Leashing her to me all the time isn't an option.  I have a 4 year old and a breastfed baby, it's just not humanly possible.  :-P  Right now, everywhere is gated off except the living room, where we spend most of our time, and the back door is open almost all the time, so she's never more than 10 or 12 feet away from me anyway.   

Yesterday she didn't even have to spend very much time in the crate at all, because when we would take her outside to pee she seemed to quickly get that if we were ignoring her, then she was supposed to go pee.  Sometimes it's taken her 20 minutes to go pee, but yesterday she was really quick, so I'm hoping that's progress!