Distractions and proofing

 Make sense?  Are you kidding???  Of *course* it makes sense!!!  This is absolutely a critical part of training that most people miss:-)))  Good for you for making your dogs safer at the dog park and the world at large.

Thanks Anne, but I don't know if I've successfully communicated the controversial part.

People say asking dogs to do something in a highly distracting environment when they haven't perfected it in a low distraction environment is setting them up for failure. I agree with this in that I think it's not until a dog has something sorted out in their head quite clearly in the first place they learnt it that they can make the mental leap to do the same thing on cue in a whole new place. It's like asking them a new behaviour. I've heard this said before, but I don't think it is really appreciated. It's not a known behaviour if you suddenly ask them to do it somewhere they haven't done it before. Being in a new place makes it a new behaviour.

My thinking is that as long as they have it nice and clear in their head then they should be able to do it somewhere new as long as that somewhere new isn't so distracting that they can't sit there and think through it, which is what they need to do, I think. The problem is the chasm between what we think is distracting and what our dogs think is distracting. It's natural for us to think that a dog park is very distracting, but if your dogs are used to fading out the other dogs and activities when you ask them to pay attention to you, then it's not a very distracting environment for them. So if I can hold their attention sufficiently in the park to teach them something new, I practice it in parks only until they have it nice and clear before I would try it at home. It would seem that I've done it backwards, but that's focusing on the wrong thing. The park distractions become part of the behaviour, so NOT having the distractions turns the behaviour into a new behaviour at home than it is in the park.

What is clear to me is the places where I don't ask things of my dogs often enough. Generally, on leash in the neighbourhood. They listen more closely and are capable of more behaviours and generalise better to the dog park and off leash beaches than they do on leash in a quiet neighbourhood because I don't habitually ask for things when the dogs are on leash in the quiet neighbourhood where there are no distractions. 

So, my point is a little confusing, but I don't pay much attention to distractions when I'm proofing things because the typical distractions aren't really that distracting to my dogs. I'm not about to ask for a new behaviour when a cat has dashed past them in the street and they are going wild. That's a distraction. But by practicing things in the dog park and other off leash places we go so much, we've rendered them relatively non-distracting environments. And I don't spend a lot of time proofing things anyway, because once they've done something new once or twice in the different environments we regularly visit (the dog park, down by the river, on the beach) they have pretty much successfully generalised it. Obviously, the more we practice something the more sure of themselves they are and the easier they can recall what that cue means.

Maybe that made some sense.

spiritdogs

 Make sense?  Are you kidding???  Of *course* it makes sense!!!  This is absolutely a critical part of training that most people miss:-)))  Good for you for making your dogs safer at the dog park and the world at large.

 

 Yeah, what Anne said.  I take advantage of all kinds of situations to proof or practice something, no matter where we are or what we're doing.

I think I get what you're saying.  You have taught your recall in an environment that many feel is too distracting but your dogs have learned to focus on you, rather than their environment, so they learn as easily in that setting as most dogs learn at home.  It's the mark of a good trainer and knowing your dogs.  You are a good observer and recognize your oppurtunities to reward.  How can someone think that is setting them up for failure?  Just the opposite.

JackieG

You have taught your recall in an environment that many feel is too distracting but your dogs have learned to focus on you, rather than their environment,

Yeah, that's it, more or less. It's not quite as easy as at home, but it's not so hard that I couldn't teach them something new from scratch as long as it was something easy. Today we were at the beach with a bunch of other Vallhunds and Erik was definitely too distracted to try anything harder than a sit or a down. Kivi was all right, but I was just rewarding Erik for checking in. Meanwhile, the lady with the other Vallhunds was doing all the things I do at the park! As she was walking she'd call one of the dogs over and they'd roll over for a treat, or do some leg-weaving, or tap her foot with a paw, just simple little tricks that took a half minute of concentration and focus or less, then they were released to go and be dogs again. It was really lovely to see what happy, confident dogs they were. They managed to out-confidence Erik, which was why he was so distracted. He's not used to being around dogs that are even more confident and self-assured than he is. These dogs could be called over at any time and certainly did spontaneously turn up and try to get someone to give them a command. It was nice to see someone doing the same thing as me and she had been doing it longer, so her dogs were pros. I have something to aim for, now!

I certainly make mistakes and sometimes misjudge my dog's state, or misjudge how well they know something we've been working on. I usually use Least Reinforcing Scenarios in those situations. Pause for a few seconds, then a treat for sticking around and trying. Or I ask for something easier right away and reward that. That is quite controversial as well, but I've found that my dogs will do something if they know what I'm asking them. I don't really have many non-compliance moments, and I always consider that even if it's something they have done previously in the park quite happily, perhaps we haven't practiced it in a while and they are rusty. This is often the case for Kivi. He needs a fairly high maintenance rate, I guess you could call it. He doesn't retain things as well as Erik does.

I think some people just choose to assume I am making massive training mistakes that are blindingly obvious to everyone but me. It's always good to check with other people independently, though. Wouldn't want to find out embarrassingly that they were right! 

corvus

Thanks Anne, but I don't know if I've successfully communicated the controversial part.

No, you've taken what was said completely out of context :)

People say asking dogs to do something in a highly distracting environment when they haven't perfected it in a low distraction environment is setting them up for failure.

What I said was that I don't train new behaviours in highly distracting environments. I said that I like to teach new behaviours in low distracting environments like at home, get the dog working well there, AND THEN proof them in various levels of distraction.

I don't ask my dogs to work when I know they aren't capable. I don't know how that is different to you not asking them for new behaviour when a cat has dashed past?

I'm not about to ask for a new behaviour when a cat has dashed past them in the street and they are going wild. That's a distraction.

Yep, and what is highly distracting for one dog is not to another. You could take one dog to the dog park and struggle to get so much as a sit out of it. You could ask one dog to do a formal retrieve when a cat runs in front of it and have totally focused, excellent work. What I or other people classify as a highly distracting environment is something that can only be defined by the dog. I don't know why it seems like such an  out there concept, but I like to gradually introduce my dogs to distractions by ensuring that they can first work well in lower levels of distraction before introducing a cat dashing past and asking for obedience (to borrow your example). This doesn't mean that I don't work my dogs in high levels of distraction, just that I set them up to win by training them when I know they can succeed.

I don't know any trainers who start training in the highest level of distraction possible.

Edited, as I re-read my post and thought I sounded a bit mean.

I think I have a little different take on this than everyone else.  I look most importantly at what motivates the dog.  Once I find that motivator, I shouldn't have to worry about constantly proofing distraction, the drive should carry the dog through any distraction that could possibly come our way.  For example, last weekend I was working Nikon off leash in the doorway between the pet store and the mall (pet store opens into the mall).  Lots of people and dog traffic, dogs and peed/marked all over this particular hallway, etc.  I wasn't worried about it, didn't have to do anything differently to compensate for the level of distraction because the motivator is so strong.  We didn't "work up" to that level of distraction, we were in the store for food and I figured since the weather was crappy, why not work the dog there?  If I'm worrying about whether the distraction level will be too high, then I'd go back an examine how I'm motivating and rewarding the dog rather than try to deal with the environment.  If the motivation and drive are high enough, it there shouldn't be any extra work created by the environment.

Liesje

I think I have a little different take on this than everyone else.  I look most importantly at what motivates the dog.  Once I find that motivator, I shouldn't have to worry about constantly proofing distraction, the drive should carry the dog through any distraction that could possibly come our way.  For example, last weekend I was working Nikon off leash in the doorway between the pet store and the mall (pet store opens into the mall).  Lots of people and dog traffic, dogs and peed/marked all over this particular hallway, etc.  I wasn't worried about it, didn't have to do anything differently to compensate for the level of distraction because the motivator is so strong.  We didn't "work up" to that level of distraction, we were in the store for food and I figured since the weather was crappy, why not work the dog there?  If I'm worrying about whether the distraction level will be too high, then I'd go back an examine how I'm motivating and rewarding the dog rather than try to deal with the environment.  If the motivation and drive are high enough, it there shouldn't be any extra work created by the environment.

I don't disagree with you in regards to a dog working well in drive shouldn't be phased by any distraction but if you have a dog who doesn't have that really high drive and you have to build it, I build it first in low levels of distraction. I can switch my scent hound into drive more or less any where at just about any time but that drive took time for us to build.

Yes, it must be built, but for me distraction was never really part of the process, if that makes sense.  Like, I never intentionally went to the pet store, dog park, etc to work the dog during the several months we focused on drive building.  It was all done without distraction to maximize the drive.  By the time the "show went on the road", what would have been a distraction to a puppy without the foundation work was not even noticeable.  The behaviors of the dog are the same whether the training session happens at home or in a WalMart.  I see a lot of people push too fast too soon and do months, YEARS of extra work having to proof every little thing, working against the dog's desires and temperament.  When you find and develop the right motivator, it should be fun and easy to go out and work the dog in any environment.

Actually huski, when I said "people" I didn't mean you. I thought we had essentially agreed. 

But, it sounds like you've missed the point anyway. I agree with Liesje. Kivi is at the point now where I don't really think about the environment or what distractions are around because I don't need to. But that isn't because what's distracting for Erik was just not inherently distracting for Kivi, and it's not because Kivi is a high drive dog, or because we use a high motivator. It's just conditioning, pure and simple. We spend a lot of time out and about with our dogs and we are in the habit of asking them to do simple things quite often regardless of the environment they are in. They are so used to typically distracting environments and paying attention to us in them that typically distracting environments just aren't very distracting anymore. That's not them, that's their training and the way they have been socialised. 

We spend a lot of time out and about with our dogs and we are in the habit of asking them to do simple things quite often regardless of the environment they are in. They are so used to typically distracting environments and paying attention to us in them that typically distracting environments just aren't very distracting anymore. That's not them, that's their training and the way they have been socialised.

Of course whether or not your dogs work well in distracting environments come down to how they have been trained. But what would you do with a dog who hasn't been trained around distractions, and finds places like the park or the beach or being 100 metres from another dog highly distracting? Would you persevere trying to teach them a new behaviour when they were unable to focus and were frustrated and stressed or would you take a few steps back and start in an environment that is less distracting, one where you could get their focus? What about a dog who is dog aggressive and has a low threshold for other dogs - would you start by asking them to focus on you when another dog was a meter away from them and your dog was lunging, growling, doing everything in it's power to rip the other dog to pieces?

corvus

But I wouldn't work up to the higher distracting environments, because I don't need to. I don't need to because they are no more distracting than each other. Every time they do a new behaviour in a new place the behaviour is strengthened and becomes easier for them to repeat in other new places. Then we take advantage of distracting situations when they arise.

So you are saying that there are no varying levels of distraction for your dogs, regardless of what the distraction is, they are all the same? And when the cat dashes past and they are going wild, you don't take a step back and gradually work up to getting their focus in that situation you instead... actually, I'm not clear on what you would do.

Liesje

Yes, it must be built, but for me distraction was never really part of the process, if that makes sense.  Like, I never intentionally went to the pet store, dog park, etc to work the dog during the several months we focused on drive building.  It was all done without distraction to maximize the drive.  By the time the "show went on the road", what would have been a distraction to a puppy without the foundation work was not even noticeable.  The behaviors of the dog are the same whether the training session happens at home or in a WalMart.  I see a lot of people push too fast too soon and do months, YEARS of extra work having to proof every little thing, working against the dog's desires and temperament.  When you find and develop the right motivator, it should be fun and easy to go out and work the dog in any environment.

Once I built drive, I really didn't have to do much if anything to proof my dogs in high levels of distraction but that doesn't mean I don't train them in high levels of distraction anyway :) I had my youngest doing obedience at a few of meters from an agility course the other night at training - she'd never been near an agility course before and a lot of the dogs were learning so a few were all over the place. I thought it was a great opportunity to work my dog in a high level of distraction to see how she'd go - even though I have every confidence in our training method, it's still worthwhile to put it to practice and test them.

huski

Of course whether or not your dogs work well in distracting environments come down to how they have been trained. But what would you do with a dog who hasn't been trained around distractions, and finds places like the park or the beach or being 100 metres from another dog highly distracting? Would you persevere trying to teach them a new behaviour when they were unable to focus and were frustrated and stressed or would you take a few steps back and start in an environment that is less distracting, one where you could get their focus? What about a dog who is dog aggressive and has a low threshold for other dogs - would you start by asking them to focus on you when another dog was a meter away from them and your dog was lunging, growling, doing everything in it's power to rip the other dog to pieces?

Well, it doesn't really matter because I'm not talking about theory, I'm talking about what I've done with my two current dogs. I think what you are suggesting I might do is utterly ridiculous and completely irrelevant to the topic at hand. This is why I thought we were in agreement. It's pretty freaking obvious you wouldn't do the above, isn't it? It doesn't even warrant a serious answer.

huski

So you are saying that there are no varying levels of distraction for your dogs, regardless of what the distraction is, they are all the same? And when the cat dashes past and they are going wild, you don't take a step back and gradually work up to getting their focus in that situation you instead... actually, I'm not clear on what you would do.