Regaining confidence (kpwlee)

BEVOLASVEGAS

You may also want to have his thyroid levels rechecked.  I know that Bev get's pissy when his levels are off.

Oh, yeah, this is a good point too. 

I hope it's not that though.

 Thanks everyone lots of good suggestions - I am already scheduled to get a blood draw for testing this week.

Time for coffee 

One of the issues tht you stated is that you dog gets so reactive that toys and food are not attractive any more. First never use toys in a situation where your dog can't relax. It can really bounce on you. The second is that you are working within the dog's critical distance and need to move away till your dog will.  You then need to reduce this distance by C+T for a alternative behaviour such as attention. It is hard to admit that sometimes it is back to basics. Giving an alternative behaviour relly increases your dog's confidence.

The two words that you want to pay attention to in this quote are "critical distance" - or, loosely translated, the point at which Bugsy first becomes reactive.  Your job as his handler is *not* to have him become reactive at all, so to work beyond that distance, even if you have to be 500 feet from the nearest dog.  The "watch me" game that you are starting should be done first, in areas with no distractions, and with high rate of reinforcement.  What you want, before you ever raise the distraction level, is to get Bugsy to be so automatic in his response to "watch me" that he acts before he thinks, and basically snaps his head and glues his eyes to yours.  If you don't have that first, it's almost impossible to make him do it (even if you later graduate to the concept in Control Unleashed where you let him look at the other dog) when you raise the distraction level.  Also, the Sporn is great for no pull, but the Halti is better for control over the dog's head, which can be critical when you are unsuccessful at a "watch me" cue, because your fall back position is to get him out of there *immediately* and back to beyond his critical distance where you can immediately start "watch me" again.  This is equivalent to a promise to your dog that you are in charge and will save him!  I do think this is all about insecurity and vulnerability, so you must not force him to stay in an aroused state, fearing for his life (that's what it can feel like to a dog that is all wound up).  "Click to Calm" is, I think, the best step by step resource for this kind of work.  Meantime, if you must walk him for rehab, I would try to get up really early, drive to a secluded place, and do that.  Training has to progress at its own speed and you can't rush the process just because the dog needs to walk, so your best bet is to manage the environment that you walk in, as best you can, till the training has effect.

Ann excellent information I have much to absorb

OK caffeine is working its magic and I would like to add a few things......

Yesterday when he lunged and barked at the golden running alongside its human we were standing still talking to a friend and their 8 year old daughter that loves B and B loves back.  We were on the apron of my driveway.  The detail about the dog being a Golden is because if he has a favorite breed that is it.  My friend and daughter were not frightened by B's behavior, but a little surprised because everyone that knows him knows him to be happy.

It isn't every human or dog and I don't have a full grip on triggers despite thinking about it for ages - one I can suggest is a running dog(on leash with owner) seems to be agitating.  Knowing his prey drive and that there has been no outlet for it and the lack of exercise, I think its a factor.

We were at the lake several times last week doing our walks (he is up to 1 mile a day) and ran into people (strangers) each time and he was all wiggles and wagging as per normal.

The changes to his life due to this surgery are very significant to him.  He has absolutely no off leash time which for a dog that was used to several hours a day of off leash time is huge.  He loves having independence and currently really has none.

I joke that the percolator is sizzling with him due to lack of exercise, this is again a serious issue.  Managing him has always meant providing an outlet for the energy - he is physically very pent up and there is no question that his anxiety levels are up because of the energy levels.  Unfortunately yes his mind is ahead of his body - we cannot increase his activity any faster than we are.

I feel very confident that it is a loss of confidence, there are times the world seems confusing to him.  I have been diligently working on retraining his boundaries and can see his mind working overtime.  Even when he is outside scenting its almost as if certain smells are unfamiliar and he looks worried.  I suppose that might seem bizarre but previously you could watch him and almost see the sniff sniff 'hmmmmmmm possum', sniff sniff 'cat'.  Now it looks like sniff sniff - what's that??

spiritdogs

get him out of there *immediately* and back to beyond his critical distance where you can immediately start "watch me" again.  This is equivalent to a promise to your dog that you are in charge and will save him!  I do think this is all about insecurity and vulnerability, so you must not force him to stay in an aroused state, fearing for his life (that's what it can feel like to a dog that is all wound up). 

I understand this but couldn't have said it so well.  I'd like to say my heart isn't broken about all this but it is.  I know I can't allow that near him but I am so deeply sad.  I can't help but fear that once this knee is healed the other will go and we have to do this all over again.

For the record, my largest concern at this point with doing any therapy work is the slick floors.  I do not for a minute think he would react in that environment.  Nor if an off leash dog came to play in the yard or if a dog was leash walked up the drive, wouldn't bother him in the least

Amanda's got SUPER good wisdom here -- I wasn't really meaning to take him into a hospital -- but rather just a private meeting (if he could get a "buddy" kind of thing -- just something he could do without feeling inadequate).

But I absolutely second getting his thyroid levels (and heck if it were me I'd be checking ALL his bloodwork) simply because any sort of surgery with all the meds/anesthesia, etc. can mess with the liver too -- which can also result in them being touchy.

spiritdogs

The two words that you want to pay attention to in this quote are "critical distance" - or, loosely translated, the point at which Bugsy first becomes reactive.  Your job as his handler is *not* to have him become reactive at all, so to work beyond that distance, even if you have to be 500 feet from the nearest dog.

I have used this technique with great success on my girl Luci who used to freeze on road and show noise. Some other interesting cases include a Bull Mastiff that was DA due to fear aggression and had already been got at by the boys and girls with the big slippers (colloquial here put the slipper in is like put the boot in). This huge dog was actually scared of Luci... He turned around pretty quickly and reliably too. It works, is sound. The only real limit is the handler patience and skill.

I think that while it is a long time since i went through this process with Luci, I still actively counter condition her to noise, and still see can her as that poor little girl with the tail stuck firmly between her legs who couldn't move which can affect my ability to act on boundaries. Yes i know the videos show a really happy girl who just loves her work but.... I think you call it the human fall out. :))

I would like to point out that often even amongst enlightened people, we will look upon mental illness and it's outcome quite differently than physical Illness and it's outcome. Sure, some dogs have inbuilt personalities  that mean they will have difficulties for the rest of their lives, but many behavourial problems can be changed and are temporary.They do not have to be permanent and shouldn't be regarded as such

 I like some of Brenda Alofts methods on get connected for getting dogs out of that horrible chemical stew that they can get themselves into when they are stressed. I know that they are a bit controversial, but the choices seem clear to me. They need very very careful training though...not for novices as the things you are looking for are quite tiny.

 Thanks all - wanted to update

First, my gut and brain tell me this isn't a blood work issue but I know to check that.

Today he worked for his entire dinner playing 'watch me'

We, on our walk at the lake where we NEVER see anyone (when it is 17* out) when we exited the wooded area and arrived by the docks, were greeted by a couple and their husky/spitz mix.  They were at the other end of the parking lot but their dog was pulling towards us.  They asked if we could meet and I said he was recovering and I wasn't sure how he would be - they said OK and told me their dog was very friendly and we tried it.

Well he was 'normal' Bugsy.  She was his new best friend and the couple were his new favorite humans and lets all play.  I let them play for some time, investigate the lake which was iced over and made sure it was a purely positive interaction.  The couple understood completely as they used to have a BC/wire-haired pointer mix who was prone to anxiety.

I would have thought the appearance of their dog would have agitated him and the pulling towards him but he was all wiggles and fun.

There was no fear or concern

Good boy Bugs!

I haven't read all the responses - but is it possible Bugs was protecting the little girl? Maybe the running of the dog/owner did not give off good signals for Bugs, and he felt the need to be protective?

I have no advice but a comment.  Maybe on the days he reacts like this is a day his knee is bothering him, making him guarded and insecur?  I know when my knee acts up or back hurts, I'm snarky and don't want anyone around me either!

 Dawn and Erica I am sure that what each of you has suggested are factors.  Honestly I really think this is a situation where Bugsy has always been the biggest, highest energy, strongest,  most confident dog around.  Now he knows he is weak.  I can see how he does things and he knows he has to protect that leg. Yesterday I did reduce his walk because I thought he was favoring it so that could definitely factor in.

And yes I think he is protective of 'his' little human.  Because many kids are fearful of him he doesn't have many little humans to interact with but she has done for a long time, she prefers him to her three dogs and he thinks she is the bees knees. 

But at the end of the day it isn't acceptable for him to be like this - so we will work on it and hopefully as he gets back to full health and we work on his training he will be our Bugsy again.

At his size the stakes are higher

kpwlee

e, on our walk at the lake where we NEVER see anyone (when it is 17* out) when we exited the wooded area and arrived by the docks, were greeted by a couple and their husky/spitz mix.  They were at the other end of the parking lot but their dog was pulling towards us.  They asked if we could meet and I said he was recovering and I wasn't sure how he would be - they said OK and told me their dog was very friendly and we tried it.

Well he was 'normal' Bugsy.  She was his new best friend and the couple were his new favorite humans and lets all play.  I let them play for some time, investigate the lake which was iced over and made sure it was a purely positive interaction.  The couple understood completely as they used to have a BC/wire-haired pointer mix who was prone to anxiety.

I would have thought the appearance of their dog would have agitated him and the pulling towards him but he was all wiggles and fun.

There was no fear or concern

This is so often the case of behaviours that are just sub threshold. Luci would be fine, all was well one day, and the next a car's brake would squeal and that would be that.

That is why i said don't worry about your dog's growl. Growl = i am uncomfortable   action from you at the moment is to turn him around ask him for attention and get him out of there as if you have not too many cares in the world.. :)

OT    BTW is that a mini in your signature? We are waiting for my OH's new mini. Apparently the wrecking balls are not going to be allowed in it :)) Just counting the months before the rule gets broken and by who. I have to have something much bigger not for the dogs but all the junk that i have to take with us..

poodleOwned

OT    BTW is that a mini in your signature?

 Quick update that we continue to work on 'watch me' in quiet places in the house

He's been out walking with DH more - DH is a large confident guy and his involvement is always beneficial.

I've had him out and about and he has been good with everyone - typical butt wiggling good.  At first he seems to survey his surroundings intently but as soon as someone pays him attention it is the above happy boy.

We did 'watch me' in a field yesterday and he did fairly well.  He knows the game, he knew how to get a reward, but only did so when he chose to.  If only I could gather enough rabbit poop to use that as treats

One technical issue I hope someone can help with is that sometimes he sits AND makes eye contact, I don't really want/need the sit. I want to C/T when he gives eye contact but not necessarily confuse it with the sit...........ideas?

kpwlee

One technical issue I hope someone can help with is that sometimes he sits AND makes eye contact, I don't really want/need the sit. I want to C/T when he gives eye contact but not necessarily confuse it with the sit...........ideas?

I'm sure not an expert clicker trainer but you might try asking him for a sit, no click and then say "watch me" and click and treat.  I also like to do quite a bit of watch me while heeling, which takes sit out of the equation.  I'm sure if this is bad advice someone will let you know. lol

kpwlee

One technical issue I hope someone can help with is that sometimes he sits AND makes eye contact, I don't really want/need the sit. I want to C/T when he gives eye contact but not necessarily confuse it with the sit...........ideas?

The important part is the eye contact. So you want to reinforce that every time. Worry about fading out the sit from the equation later? Or make it, "watch me" c/t, take a few steps, "sit" c/t, take a few steps, "watch me", perhaps?