Regaining confidence (kpwlee)

kpwlee

In considering your responses remember that he is ridiculously powerful, willful, smart, stubborn, and not terribly biddable. He is not food or toy motivated when excited.

I would need to know how old he is, what breed, what training he has in the past, who is in the household, what experience you have had as a dog trainer and what the nature and extent of his injury is.

My experience has been as  a "triage" trainer in clubs. Take the dogs who are doing poorly, see whether a limited amount of one on one will help, and if not refer to  a professional trainer or behavourist.

I also need to point out that often what seem like minor pieces of information from the dog or owner cause me to change course 180 degrees and that the internet is not a great place to do anything other than pretty simple work.

Frankly i usually make up my own mind about these issues (and keep them to myself) "powerful, willful, smart, stubborn, and not terribly biddable".

 And this is so normal "He is not food or toy motivated when excited." in fact it can help us work with the dog .

Dunno what you use to walk him with but the only thing I can control Luna with is a Sporn.  There is something about that strap going under the front legs that cuts the power they have with the front legs.

There was a bit of a discussion involving Willow the other day at the vet -- she freaked a bit over some bloodwork.  I saw the same thing in Billy back just after he got off all the IMHA meds -- he was finally feeling better and MAN -- he did **NOT** want anything to remind him he'd been sick and weak. 

In Bugsy's situation I'm assuming it's literally some fear agression and simply "I'm gonna get YOU before you have an opportunity to find out I'm weak!!"

I'm sure others may have good suggestions -- but my way would be to work on confidence in other ways --

1.  Tracking -- literally giving him a whole new "thing" to do.  It's a great thing to start indoors in nasty weather ... and giving him a demonstrable skill that others can "ooh" and "aaahhh" over is not a bad thing for a dog's confidence level.

2.  Do you have any sort of veterans organization you can get hold of?  Or honestly, even a nursing home.

I know Bugsy is a major handful -- BUT if he likes people, it is FAR easier to get a dog to be gentle with someone a big challenged than you'd think.  If you can find out from a vet's organization of someone he could go VISIT, it is very interesting how this can challenge a recovering dog.  Suddenly they see someone *else* needing comfort and confidence.  They can *smell* the medicine and the weakness. 

If he will chase a ball a few feet -- or take a goodie from someone's hand -- it tends to be an incredible confidence builder because suddenly they are on the giving end rather than the "you could hurt me" end.

Most nursing homes have rec rooms -- you may not want to try to take him to rooms -- but a lot of seniors truly get a charge out of JUST giving a dog a treat (just have them drop it to the floor at first), or to see a dog run after a toy (even if they don't throw it).  It breaks the monotony of their day and in an incredible way it can be the *best* way I know of to teach a dog to be ***gentle***. 

But if you can find an organization that deals with vets -- it could be an awesome thing. It might sound crazy -- but I've seen it work a LOT of times.

Karen, I should know this but have you ever been able to charge the clicker for Bugsy?    Isn't there anything that, with no distractions, you can condition him to respond to the clicker as a positive reinforcement?  Don't know if my question makes sense.

JackieG

Isn't there anything that, with no distractions, you can condition him to respond to the clicker as a positive reinforcement? 

I usually go away and find a quiet place with the owners and do this first. It is so helpful..Sometimes because i am kind of neutral the dog might be more comfortable with me doing it. I am sure that the pro trainers all have their own ways.

 Thank you Callie and poodleowned - Callie i love the idea of a veterans place - being in NC an about an hour from Fort Bragg we have facilities in reach.

calliecritturs

In Bugsy's situation I'm assuming it's literally some fear agression and simply "I'm gonna get YOU before you have an opportunity to find out I'm weak!!"

We used the sporn when he was a pup (and overly excited by squirrels) it did nothing but force him to use his back legs which right now is not a good idea.  He has broken various training collars going after prey and a leather leash.  I kid you not about power.

poodleowned he is a mixed breed, lean at 105lbs - we think dane/boxer/ or mastiff and 'bird' dog (and of course potentially others, plott hound is mentioned by many ).  We feel that the 'bird dog' is german shorthair but some guess weim others lab.  He is nearly 4.5 years and in November had a TPLO.  He has been on reduced activity since August, prior to which he was running/hiking at least 30 miles a week, had several playdates a week and training on top.  We now believe that his knee was bad since last winter, he never limped but we have picked up on certain thinks like sitting position and some things he didn't do.  He has been through 3 obedience based training classes and we do clicker training, informal tracking and retrieving work.  He loves to work, is extremely driven, loves to learn and learns quick.  BUT you must work to keep his interest, one slip or window for boredom and he is gone. 

He is borderline hyperactive if not definitely hyperactive and when he scents say a goose he disappears into his own world as if on opiates.

We have worked intensely on recall but I would never bet against him going after something he scented. He has lost some training during this whole process (knee) that is odd to say the least, like losing all sense of his boundaries on our property and some training.  He never begged he does now.

As for me he is my first dog as an adult and has forced me to read & practice vociferously.  I am knowledgeable and due to him fairly experienced in training but far from professional and far from even people that train formally for various activities.  The trainers we have worked with have all considered him the most challenging dog they have met.  I am trained as an educator and psychologist and have a very good grip on teaching theories and practice.

He knows many commands, probably his best reward is praise and more work/learning.

From the day we brought him home at about 14 weeks he loved all dogs and all people.  Last winter he was agitated by a leash reactive dog and we had to work through that, I think now that may be the beginning of what we have now.

He has plenty of dog buddies that we can may be walk a bit with but he is still a long way off full activity or even full exercise.

I am just at a loss.  I know he needs to feel more confident but not sure what I can do with him now to start that process.  I will look into the veterans facilities and perhaps nursing homes.  I don't worry that he would act out in those places at all

JackieG

Karen, I should know this but have you ever been able to charge the clicker for Bugsy?    Isn't there anything that, with no distractions, you can condition him to respond to the clicker as a positive reinforcement?  Don't know if my question makes sense.

he knows the clicker and it is 'charged' - not sure about the next bit in your post........ are you saying to try and get the click to be the reward? and that would then increase his confidence?

More info Aunt Jackie LOL

the only negative with the clicker is that he gets so insanely hyper when we 'learn' 

I'm going to start doing this with him tomorrow LINK to watch me game

he knows watch me but I think this would be a good thing to do over and over and this makes it fun

kpwlee

 Thank you Callie and poodleowned - Callie i love the idea of a veterans place - being in NC an about an hour from Fort Bragg we have facilities in reach.

calliecritturs

In Bugsy's situation I'm assuming it's literally some fear agression and simply "I'm gonna get YOU before you have an opportunity to find out I'm weak!!"

I feel fairly confident this is the problem

We used the sporn when he was a pup (and overly excited by squirrels) it did nothing but force him to use his back legs which right now is not a good idea.  He has broken various training collars going after prey and a leather leash.  I kid you not about power.

poodleowned he is a mixed breed, lean at 105lbs - we think dane/boxer/ or mastiff and 'bird' dog (and of course potentially others, plott hound is mentioned by many ).  We feel that the 'bird dog' is german shorthair but some guess weim others lab.  He is nearly 4.5 years and in November had a TPLO.  He has been on reduced activity since August, prior to which he was running/hiking at least 30 miles a week, had several playdates a week and training on top.  We now believe that his knee was bad since last winter, he never limped but we have picked up on certain thinks like sitting position and some things he didn't do.  He has been through 3 obedience based training classes and we do clicker training, informal tracking and retrieving work.  He loves to work, is extremely driven, loves to learn and learns quick.  BUT you must work to keep his interest, one slip or window for boredom and he is gone. 

He is borderline hyperactive if not definitely hyperactive and when he scents say a goose he disappears into his own world as if on opiates.

Hi

The very first thing that i need to say is that dogs like this can be quite complex to train and you really need to work with a good R+ trainer that smiles when they see your dog and clicks with him :)) Nothing of what i am about to say is meant to be critical to you at all. I just don't have the ability to communicate with people that well. I think that it is wonderful that you have bought a dog into your home and are working so hard with him.

My lab Cadbury was so energetic and driven that he got his Tracking Championship when he was 13 1/2. He was still wickedly fast then. I know what you mean by hyper but i have a suspicion that it might not help you deal with your dog. I prefer to think of it as this wonderful energy that is best utilised and channeled rather than pathologised or thought of as something that makes him less than. 

My poodle Sam is pretty energetic too :)

How do i do it?

Well the first thing is i train really fast and demand what my dogs can give me. I reinforce heavily for good work. I saw the video of the watch me excercise, and it is what you have to do, but i find the words hard to say , i would prefer the way that Chris Bach does it. It becomes a much more active exercise quickly and is proofed quite early. Even today, Luci gets to play this game. How to get the tuggie off my shelf.. just watch me. At the end you should feel like your dogs eyes are boring into you no matter what you do. Have a look on Luci in the signals excercise in

http://s587.photobucket.com/albums/ss311/deniscody100/LuciLuci%20UD%20training/?action=view¤t=signals.flv

despite a very strong wind she seeks to look at me.

Getting your dog to pay active attention is the start of increasing endurance behaviours .

One of the issues tht you stated is that you dog gets so reactive that toys and food are not attractive any more. First never use toys in a situation where your dog can't relax. It can really bounce on you. The second is that you are working within the dog's critical distance and need to move away till your dog will.  You then need to reduce this distance by C+T for a alternative behaviour such as attention. It is hard to admit that sometimes it is back to basics. Giving an alternative behaviour relly increases your dog's confidence.

Tracking is a really good sport too strongly reccomended, and helps condition dogs and helps confidence. I am a strong supporter of Steve Whites methods and you can get his dvds from Tawzer videos. Warning it is super addicitve. Some how i am handling 5 dogs this season and helping  a few people track theirs...

 The fact that he goes into his own world when geese are around is "normal hunting dog". You can either compete or Premack. You can visually block, or move away or itnerupt or condition another behaviour . It is all abou timing. He is a dog with imprinted behaviours for some circustances. You either use these behaviours, suppress or compete. I choose to use. sometims play is the way to use these drives.

http://www.focusonfreestyle.com.au/videoplay1.html look at Sam and Luci..

kpwlee

I will look into the veterans facilities and perhaps nursing homes.  I don't worry that he would act out in those places at all

At the moment i wouldn't. I would be worried about his stress levels.

 [quote user="kpwlee"]We have worked intensely on recall but I would never bet against him going after something he scented.[/quote

There are several very good programmes out there for this. One that seems to be good is the Really Reliable Recall . You aren't competing, you are relying on your conditioning.

Overall, I would cut down the hiking and increase hs training. I would actively seek recall soon during his play dates. I would make play conditional too. You don't want to be competing with other dogs in the who is the nicest to be with stakes. So make the pay conditional on him doing something with you.

I wouldn't over react to his growls. 

kpwlee

I know he needs to feel more confident but not sure what I can do with him now to start that process.  I will look into the veterans facilities and perhaps nursing homes.  I don't worry that he would act out in those places at all

If you've never done pet therapy yourself let me tell you it is EXHAUSTING.  For you and the dog -- it is literally emotionally draining for them and it never fails -- even a completely hyperactive pug will go to Give Kids the World for 45 minutes and go home and SLEEP for hours. 

Why?  It **is** emotional.  It doesn't take long for them to figure out that they are there for a REASON.  That these folks are needy.  I literally have seen dogs GIVE energy in unbelievable ways -- and you can't even begin to know what I mean until you've done it. 

Luna is also **very** much like Bugsy -- she tends to be David's dog and I really don't handle her much because I flatly can't.  But -- I have seen what it does when she is in pet therapy mode -- you would literally think that someone siphoned energy off them.

The good part about this is that it would enable you to use this to work some of the energy off him. 

I have a good friend in Drexel - is that anywhere near you??  She is a doctor and works with pet therapy all day long -- but she would be THE best person I know to hook you up with.  (that and the fact she's just an awesome friend!!)

She does pet therapy with a huge range of animals -- from a deaf/blind springer (how can I have a 'heart' dog that I've never even met -- but I'm so in love with Brownie it's not funny) all the way to donkeys and horses.  But she'd give you good counsel about the where and when to get started.  I'll pm you her email.

kpwlee

I'm going to start doing this with him tomorrow LINK to watch me game

Just what I was going to suggest. :)  Quite a few really nice things to do on that site. 

calliecritturs

If you've never done pet therapy yourself let me tell you it is EXHAUSTING.  For you and the dog -- it is literally emotionally draining for them and it never fails -- even a completely hyperactive pug will go to Give Kids the World for 45 minutes and go home and SLEEP for hours. 

My work has been with Cadbury with Adolescents with Mental Health Issues. He was quite robust and could take it for hours at a time.

Luci gets to work with adults who are bereaved with loss of partners , children or pets. Again, she doesn't seem to be affected so much. I mean cuddles for free.....

I think that it could be very challenging in  a hospital setting which is why i am concerned, more for the dog's sake. You have to ask why is the dog so tired? and not have question marks.

I didn't say it correctly. I'm trying to say that I think he needs more repetition of being reinforced for focusing on you, for recalling, for heel, etc.  I think it's something that can't be overdone.  I don't think he's acting this way due to lack of confidence but because he thinks that these other things are more rewarding than you are. 

kpwlee

OK it appears that Bugsy has lost a lot of confidence in this whole bad knee situation (and may be it was already sliding).  He has been acting differently around dogs he knows, barked at a human on a walk the other day, and just now a GR was jogging with their owner and he freaked.  Low huge bark and lunge.  He did sit on command but popped back up and did it again.

Karen, this is just my dog mom to dog mom experience.  I'm not a trainer by any stretch.  But, when Willow was sick we couldn't do a lot of the things that she had been doing and had been doing pretty well(for her).  We couldn't hike for example.  And, when we finally did get back to it things that she never reacted to previously she did then.  It was like she had forgotten that occasionally people happen by in the woods.  Or, a branch might fall from a tree over her head, etc. 

But, I just stuck with it and after a few weeks had passed, she was fine again. She got used to it again or remembered it again, whatever it was, but I didn't do anything other than keep going. 

Also, time helped because after we were going on a regular basis it wasn't such a big deal for her anymore.  At first, she was all crazy, acting like she's never been anywhere. 

Edited to also add--The other thing I wanted to mention was that before she was really ready to go hiking again.  I took her to the trail.  And, she wouldn't even go past the trail head.  She just refused.  Mentally, she was very excited about the "going" there part.  But, once we got there she didn't want to do anything.  So, it's possible maybe Bugs just is more mentally ready than he is physically.  That and/or all I mentioned above. 

Good luck, Karen.  I know what it's like having a dog that lunges.  I can not begin to imagine trying to control a dog Bugs size.  I just wouldn't physically be able! 

poodleOwned

I think that it could be very challenging in  a hospital setting which is why i am concerned, more for the dog's sake. You have to ask why is the dog so tired? and not have question marks.

Pet therapy is about the bond between the animal and the person being ministered to.  We encourage compassion in our dogs -- we keep the visits VERY short -- no marathon sessions -- I would *never* under any circumstances do pet therapy for hours in an emotionally laden circumstance.  Most of the children we deal with are terminally ill -- the dogs smell that and realize that -- it is draining so you keep the sessions extremely short so you don't overstress your dog.  You watch for signs of fatigue constantly - or even of antsy-ness -- anything to indicate you need to terminate the sessions. 

It's easy to see why they are tired -- you may not agree but I can definitely see where often these people may literally soak up entergy from the dog -- that may not be something that's easy for you to identify with, but I have seen it happen *many* times -- just like I've seen energy transference and healing occur.  It all has to do with energy.  And energy cleansing is something you do routinely upon return. 

This isn't stuff I usually discuss on a forum like this -- but when talking about working with folks like veterans there's a likelihood of some pretty intense emotional transference.

JackieG

I don't think he's acting this way due to lack of confidence but because he thinks that these other things are more rewarding than you are. 

I tend to agree with Jackie on this.  I would heavily reinforce the watch me, probably so much so that it is the default behavior when you stop. 

Right now, I would not attempt therapy work.  You are having some issues with him at the present time, & exposing other people to these issues isn't something that I would feel comfortable doing.  Couple that with slick floors that are usually present in hospital type settings, & a newly repaired knee on a big, excitable dog would be enough for me to take a pass on therapy work at the present time.  One slip could be disastrous, & not a risk that I would take.  YMMV

You may also want to have his thyroid levels rechecked.  I know that Bev get's pissy when his levels are off.