Pack leader (?) reg. walking on leash and more, for inexperienced owner-wannabe.

Since this isn't your dog, you shouldn't be doing any training without the owners consent, and if it were MY dog, I'd be majorly ticked if you were using the teachings of CM on my dog.

FWIW, my german shepherds walk beside me in heel.  Their mid-body is about equal with my leg.  My dogs are not asked to wait at doors.  I'd rather they go ahead of me. 

I would do some serious damage to anyone who put a foot on MY dogs.  If you don't want to play, if you feel like he is in your space, IGNORE.  No talking, no touching, no eye contact, just completely ignore...

Just because the dog is in front of you doesn't mean he is trying to be alpha over you.  I suggest you use a modified William Koehler tecnique.  Use a twenty foot lead and walk in a large area, park, field, or something.  Give the dog the full twenty feet, but abruptly change direction without notifying the dog.  He will get dragged by you (with a large dog a harness will give you better leverage, or a harness with a D ring on the front of the chest).  Continue to walk and change directions, especially when the dog is ahead of you, or if he is pulling.  Don't talk to the dog, just physically be in charge.  Anywhere from five to thirty minutes you will find that you are no longer pulling the dog because he is paying attention to you.  Now, you are leading the hunt.  From this day forward, work him on the long line, you can go to a 30 or 40 foot line if you have the room.  Everytime he comes to your side, praise him and pet him.  If he knows "heel", call him to you with "Rover, heel" and reward him when he complies.  After a few steps, give him his release word.  Keep him at the heel longer and longer each day until you can walk him down the street, the whole block, with him nicely at the heel.  Remember to praise him.

 He will get more exercise this way rather than at a strict heel and you will be able to have control over him when he is not right next to you.

 Pushing a hundred pound dog away with your foot is not the same as kicking the dog.  He sees you as his pal, so of course wants to play with you.  How many people in a day want to go outside with him?  or play with him?  While you are doing long line work, work on sit.  He needs to sit wherever he is when you tell him.  Inside, tell him to sit.  He complies.  Pick up a book or newspaper and hide your face behind it.  He'll see that you are ignoring him and settle down.  Stop giving in to his demands and he will stop demanding.  If you want to play with him or pet him, have him first sit or lie down and settle.  Then, you call him to you and instigate play, putting YOU in charge.

I think it's great that you are walking this dog.  Not so great that you are correcting the dog for completely normal dog behavior.  May I recommend you read "Culture Clash" by Jean Donaldson?  It will give you a different perspective on why dogs behave the way they do and why we misinterpret it so often. There's a reason that CM's TV show cautions people from using his training methods.  The fact that he lifted his lip at you is an early warning that you may not be on the right track.

HappyViking

He responds well to most commands, though sometimes he won't if he doesn't seem to feel up for it.

It's not that he doesn't feel up for it or that he is being willfully disobedient. He does not listen to cues because he has not been properly trained. It is not the fault of the dog that the handler has not properly reinforced listening to cues as the most beneficial option.

HappyViking

 When I first started walking, he pulled a lot, which I was able to mostly correct by the end of that first walk by stopping and not walking until he would obey, otherwise I also would do a nudge on the collar (high up on neck), to the side. Trying to imitate C. Millan. 

Why do you feel it is necessary to imitate someone off the TV?

HappyViking

I always insist on walking through doorways first, I won't allow him in or out until I tell him. He will always try, but quickly obeys. Same on walks. Will always start pulling a little eventually, but the gentlest tug to the side takes care of it.

Walking through doorways first is unnecessary. Dogs do not form linear hierarchies, and they dogs do not have an "alpha" who resides over them. Dominance theory has been proven incorrect, and training with it in mind is a flawed way to train. Walking through doorways first really doesn't mean anything to the dog - they want to get out quickly because it means that the fun of a walk will begin sooner.

HappyViking

 I am realizing I am giving mixed messages by letting him walk in front of me, while he sniffs and marks.

The only mixed messages you are giving him is when you are trying to use alpha/dominance theory to explain his behavior and to create a training protocol, and not being consistent in your expectations of him. He is not walking in front of you and sniffing and marking because he is trying to exert dominance over you. He is doing it because it is more rewarding than walking next to you.

HappyViking

I must say I did a lot of correcting today, and plenty of stopping as well.

Doesn't sound like any fun. Why insist on correcting the dog when you could just as easily be utilizing positive reinforcement and dishing out treats and play time for behaving properly? Learning slows down and deteriorates when animals are punished - so it makes training even harder. ALL behaviors are also suppressed, not just the behavior being punished. So he may stop pulling on the leash, but he'll also stop sniffing, stop looking at you, and stop having fun on his walk.

HappyViking

Since he's such a large dog, where should he be? Is it OK if his head or muzzle is in front of me, or should all of him be behind me? How far can he sneak ahead before he will think he's in the lead, and before I correct him? And what about sniffing around and marking; should all that happen behind me?

It does not matter. Walking in front of you, behind you, or to the side of you, has nothing to do with status. Ask him to walk wherever it is most convenient and comfortable for you, and be consistent. Dominance theory is flawed and incorrect.

HappyViking

Is that his way to try to regain his position with me after the more submissive walk, or is it more likely because our trip today was more quiet and mental than physical exercise with the release of energy?

It's because his training has not been correct and consistent. In a situation like this, it is the failure of the handler when a dog is not listening to cues, not the dog's failure.

And I am confused by how he was curling his lip. A lot of dogs will "smile" during play, and I know my dog pulls his lips back if he is expecting me to throw the toy so he can catch it better. Personally, if you had possession of the toy and he was waiting for you to throw it, I would assume it wasn't an aggressive display.

HappyViking

I ended up pushing him away using my foot. What is the best way to push him backward, if using my hand? Push against his chest, or his side, or something else? I just want to communicate my wishes in a firm way that he will understand and not take offense to.

Pushing is unnecessary. Ask his real owner if it's OK for you to teach him a "Go to Your Place" command, where you verbally cue him to go to a dog bed or crate, and when he is being annoying give him the cue. This is very easy to teach with a clicker.

 So in the end, remember, dominance theory is flawed. Dogs do not form linear hierarchies, are not trying to rule the roost, and the behaviors this dog are displaying are not because he is trying to dominate you but because training has not be consistent. Use positive reinforcement (treats) to get him to do what you want, and really get him to understand that listening to your cues is worth his while because it gets him Good Things for Dogs. Stop overly punishing and correcting him - if using punishment correctly you should not be having to repeat it so frequently. Use the times he is behaving correctly to reward him. You wouldn't go to work if you didn't get paid and just got jabbed, and the dog is not going to work for you if he doesn't get paid.

A good general rule of thumb is that if it isn't your dog don't try to train it without permission of the owner.  Even if you have the owner's permission, you should go over the exact methods that you plan to use in training their dog. 

Quite frankly, if I were to find out that someone was using physical corrections on MY dog, I would "correct" them very harshly & very swiftly.

You might want to stop watching CM & start reading a book called "Culture Clash."  The way that you are handling this dog can very easily get you bit, along with ruining the relationship that you have with the dog.

 If I found out that someone was pulling on my dogs neck while on a walk, WATCHOUT! It is not your place to train someone elses dog, especially using CM techniques. Also, using your foot to push a dog away is stupid. Did the owners give you permission to train and discipline their dog?

It's good that you are walking this dog. I use the same technique to walk my dog and many other dogs as well. I could answer you all your questions one by one but i will send you a private message instead.

A lot of people in this forum dont like Cesar Millan and if i start answering your questions then for sure we will get those people questioning every single word, action and comment like lions towards prey, hijacking the thread at the end

I will explain you more in the PM

Thanks for replying. I must say I am VERY surprised at the answers. First of all, yes I do have permission from the owners and they have given me tips as well. I am not doing anything they would not agree to. I do sense a lot of anger from some of you, and I find this sad and unnecessary. I am only trying to learn, and to do good to this dog and our relationship. Just a couple of days ago I read about the importance of establishing pack-leadership for the dog's own happiness. So please be patient with me. It is not tempting to ask questions (in order to learn!!) when met this way.

I have to say I am more confused than ever before. CM is not the only one to train in this way, and I had no idea his ways were so controversial.  Anyway, I will back off on what I am doing and go back to what we both were enjoying anyway. It sure is nice to know that our walks as they were, were totally fine and good. I do want him to enjoy our walks together.

 Not sure why it's OK that the dog is in my face, in my lap and I can not use my foot to gently but firmly push him away from me? I did NOT kick, the dog felt NO PAIN. Maybe so you understand better, I am only slightly over 100 Lbs myself, so it takes some doing from my side to move him over. I am not inside their house for enough time to be able to accomplish much training inside reg. commands to go to his bed. My time with him is walking mostly, with a few minutes inside as I get my kids. As the lip curling happened, he was looking at the toy and not at my face. I still wasn't sure about it. I hadn't seen him do that before. Will ask his male owner (who handles him the most) what he things and the things we were doing today, to see what he thinks.

 Anyway, sorry I offended you, I only meant well toward the dog and the owners. 

HappyViking

Just a couple of days ago I read about the importance of establishing pack-leadership for the dog's own happiness. So please be patient with me. It is not tempting to ask questions (in order to learn!!) when met this way.

I think that it is important to be a good leader for your pet, but not in the way Cesar Millan and a few other people recommend. Walking through doors first, being in front of a dog on a walk, and overly correcting do not do anything to enforce leadership in the way some people think. It doesn't have to do with status, but merely being consistent and precise with your pet and communicating clearly in a way they understand. Dogs do not understand us trying to dominate them because they do not have a linear hierarchy. Here is an excellent link that talks about the problems with dominance theory and using it as a training protocol, and some of the issues with punishment: http://www.associationofanimalbehaviorprofessionals.com/whats_wrong_with_dominance.html

HappyViking

I have to say I am more confused than ever before. CM is not the only one to train in this way, and I had no idea his ways were so controversial. 

Cesar Millan is a hot topic among the dog world, and for good reason. He uses a lot of physical force with dogs, and though some of his ideas are good and solid, to me, the bad outweighs the good. He is not the only trainer to emphasize proper exercise, consistency, and an owner behaving calmly - those are all great. But his sometimes highly physical and upsetting methods are very difficult to properly pull off and have a lot of consequences. Punishment suppresses learning and all behavior, and a lot of dogs that he trains have learned nothing other than learned helplessness and to mentally shut down. I have seen very little, if any, positive reinforcement from him. And someone piping in an arguing that once they saw him give a dog a treat is not enough.

HappyViking

It sure is nice to know that our walks as they were, were totally fine and good. I do want him to enjoy our walks together.

If you are both enjoying your walks the way they were before, great! Keep at it. But stop punishing the dog unnecessarily.  I would really focus on rewarding the good behavior, as it sounds like he is offering it frequently and not getting anything out of it. Bring some tasty treats with you and when he notice he's walking politely, give him a couple. It makes the good behavior more likely to happen for the dog, and it turns walks into something even more fun, wherein the dog is not concerned about getting punished.

HappyViking

I am not inside their house for enough time to be able to accomplish much training inside reg. commands to go to his bed.

Sure you are! Clicker training a behavior of going and laying down is super easy and not at all hard or time consuming. A few 3 minute sessions and you could easily have a much more desirable behavior than a dog getting up in your business.

tenna

Learning slows down and deteriorates when animals are punished - so it makes training even harder.

Wrong, as i showed on my video in the other thread of my dog doing clicker training even when i have used corrections in the past (and there is no need to go over the whole thing again)

tenna

methods are very difficult to properly pull off

espencer

Wrong, as i showed on my video in the other thread of my dog doing clicker training even when i have used corrections in the past (and there is no need to go over the whole thing again)

Cold you show me in the literature where someone has been able to prove this point? Then we wouldn't have to ever debate this issue again. I am so bored with it.

poodleOwned

Cold you show me in the literature where someone has been able to prove this point?

I dont have to, that "someone" (me) showed you a video instead demonstrating it (better than literature in my opinion). I you have any more questions then we can discuss it in the other thread to avoid getting off topic here

 Someone who is light, as you are, and trying to train or walk a 100 pound dog will do better with "hands off" training techniques anyway.  Learn to clicker train!  You can access free lessons here: www.clickerlessons.com.  Go to youtube and type "kikopup" into the search box and you will see lots of clicker trained behaviors.  Please do read "Culture Clash" - it's entertaining, and a great way to learn to think as your dog might.  For some insight into why we are telling you to avoid dominance techniques or punishment, have a look at the AVSAB web page (www.avsab.com) and check out their position statements.  This information comes directly from veterinary behaviorists, people who study dogs extensively, and not from a pop culture icon who has no formal education in canine behavior.  Take a look at this site: www.beyondcesarmillan.com for some input from some of the top trainers in the country, too.

Tenna's comments and suggestions are great, and I would avoid confrontational training with a dog that is already growling.  Here's why: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/02/090217141540.htm

Here's an article about dominance and a recent study: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/05/090521112711.htm

Keep learning!  Glad you're here.

espencer

tenna

Learning slows down and deteriorates when animals are punished - so it makes training even harder.

 

Wrong, as i showed on my video in the other thread of my dog doing clicker training even when i have used corrections in the past (and there is no need to go over the whole thing again)

I've given you sources for my information before, spency. I have given you information from Applied Animal behaviorists (they have a CAAB after their name, and to get that they need a Ph.D., or a masters degree, focusing on behavioral sciences, or are a D.V.M. with a further 2-3 years of behavioral study after graduating vet school.) saying that what I have to say is true. Punishing slows down learning and suppresses many more behaviors than just the one being punished.

That is not to say a dog who has been punished cannot learn or that it is impossible for them to learn, just that it slows the process down.

espencer

tenna

methods are very difficult to properly pull off

 

Not really

Yes really.