Need some tips for dealing with ACD pup

    • Silver

    Need some tips for dealing with ACD pup

    I have a 9 month old male Australian Cattle Dog pup.  He has always attempted to establish his dominance in our house (I'm 23 and live with my parents).  I got him at 12 weeks and have always tried to keep the consistency as far as his behavior - he knows sit, down, I don't let him beg, etc. 

    He has recently taken to dominating my mom - and most recently actually bit her while she tried to get him in the truck to go for a ride.  He literally just flipped out - like a dog who is restrained and is trying to get away...only he was not restrained, he was simply on his leash and she bent down to assist him into the truck when he wouldn't jump in himself (he usually does get in himself.) He bit her arm and leg drawing blood in both places, and when she tried to put him back in the house because she decided not to take him with her (because he wouldn't get in the truck) he continued to try to bite her leg while she was trying to close the house door.  He has displayed this "growling" behavior with me in the past, but when I scolded using a harsh tone he quit and just followed my command. 

    He has also recently been refusing to come and finding hiding places where I cannot reach him - i.e. under the truck, under the coffee table, behind the Christmas tree Super Angry 

     I am literally at a loss for him.  Any suggestions? I know of people using training collars, yes the ones that give a small shock, and was thinking of researching training methods using those. Don't jump down my throat because I'm mentioning this...I'm looking for useful and constructive ideas so help me out!

    • Gold Top Dog

    At his age, most dogs are not mature enough mentally to truly be dominant. It sounds more to me like this dog needs better communication and more positive reinforcement in his life.  What you are describing are more fear-based behaviors.  The dog doesn't understand what the humans want and possibly does not respect the humans.  It doesn't sound like he's trying to dominate anyone or anything, it sounds more like he's being withdrawn and protecting himself (from his perspective....I'm not saying that anyone is intentionally hurting him mentally or physically).

    How was he socialized as a puppy?  What types of training have you done up to this point?  How and when does your mom interact with him (like, who feeds him? trains him? walks him? etc)?  Does he have any physical problems that could cause behavior problems (like pain, blindness, etc)?

    I would forget about using an e-collar right now.  An e-collar trainer that really knows how to use this tool for these problems is going to be one in a million.  The risk of causing more damage is too great.  Without knowing more details, my suggestion is to research NILIF/"Nothing In Life Is Free" instead and get your mom on board.  Basically, you and your mom (and anyone else involved) need to control the dog's freedoms and resources.  He needs to "earn" things and by doing so, will learn to respect your mom and also be positively reinforced for the right behaviors.  I would also research clicker training and see if this is something your mom would want to do with him so that they can build a positive bond, not just your mom having to physically control the dog against his will.

    • Gold Top Dog

     Also, a sudden behavior change (like biting people and drawing blood, not jumping, and hiding under furniture) warrants a vet visit, regardless of the age of the dog. Sounds, to me, like something is bothering him.

    • Bronze

    First thing. Vet check.

    Rusty's Momma

    I have a 9 month old male Australian Cattle Dog pup.  He has always attempted to establish his dominance in our house ....................

    He has recently taken to dominating my mom

    After decades of owning multiple dogs from working lines, training with various clubs and helping people train their dogs, I still don't know what that means and I've never seen a dog "dominating" 

     Everything you are doing seems wrong. clearly this problem is beyond your ability to deal with it.  I would hire a behaviorist that has experience with behavior modification without the use of aversives.

     Punishing a dog for growling is never a good idea, the growls is a warning which might be the reason you claim he flips out. You may have taught him not to give out warnings which leaves his only option - to act.

     

    Rusty's Momma
    He has also recently been refusing to come and finding hiding places where I cannot reach him - i.e. under the truck, under the coffee table, behind the Christmas tree
    What's in it for him?   Have you provided the right motivation? Does the dog have a history of getting something out of coming out? Or is he coming out only to get yelled at and punished even more?

     


    • Gold Top Dog

    Rusty's Momma

    I have a 9 month old male Australian Cattle Dog pup.  He has always attempted to establish his dominance in our house (I'm 23 and live with my parents).  I got him at 12 weeks and have always tried to keep the consistency as far as his behavior - he knows sit, down, I don't let him beg, etc. 

    He has recently taken to dominating my mom - and most recently actually bit her while she tried to get him in the truck to go for a ride.

     

    ACDs do well in a wide range of sports  . BUT they need huge amounts of activity and training and are right up there as a breed that has issues with Dog Aggression . It is hardly suprising when you find out how tough they can be in the work they are bred for.

    I am worried that you got him as late as 12 weeks. It also appears that you may not have had much info about socialisation. They are a breed that needs heavy socialisastion.

    I have no numbers to back it up, but i have heard of many blueys that have car sickness troubles. This may be the basis of the problems you have with him, your mum and the truck. Using a e collar on him for this  would be counter productive.

    I think you need some serious help from a good trainer. You have some serious decisions to make. It is hard when you land up with a dog that is just not like you wished or hoped for. 

     

    • Gold Top Dog

    I would also suggest a trainer.  When I got my first dog on my own I found a good trainer in my area and took him through lots of classes, some to learn how I can be a good trainer (basic class and advanced) and then some for fun (rally and agility).  Now with my second dog I knew what to do because I learned from my previous mistakes.  A good trainer will help you really learn how to train and you can get your dog to where he needs to be to live happily in your home.  A training class where you and your mom go together would be a great start.  It is good for socializing and good for you both to learn some basic do's and don'ts of training.

    • Gold Top Dog
    Working breeds can either be the toughest dogs to own or the easiest depending on how much you train the dog and how much of a bond you develop. Acds are tough and very smart dogs with bold dispositions. they need way more exercise than the avg owner can provide and a lot of mental stimulation too.

    What is your history with this dog by way of: 1) formal training, 2) physical exercise, 3) mental exercise? Is the dog fixed?

    It is not unusual for a dog of this age to test its boundaries. The more training you have had with this dog to this point the easier this phase would be. That is why it is so important to take formal classes with your dog starting at a very young age.

    I am worried about the biting you are describing. It is unusual for a dog to draw blood in not 1 but 2 places that are so far apart on the body. Yes, if you hired a qualified trainer with the right experience and if you followed nilif and positive methods, you could make some progress and totally turn the dog and your relationship around. But at this point you would need to be VERY dedicated with 100% support from everyone living in that house. This is no easy task and will take a long time. I think you should seriously consider whether or not this is the right dog for you and your family.

    Go to the library and look up a few books and start reading: control unleashed, click to calm, don't shoot the dog are all good ones. Other folks here can give you more ideas on books. What you need to learn is why dogs act aggressive to people (fear, resource guarding, etc). You need to become familiar with positive based training and why/how it works. Then you need to learn how to apply it to your dog.

    Finally, I would search out a yahoo email group that is dedicated to cattle dogs so that you can learn from others that know the breed. Best of luck to you

    • Bronze

    First of all, dominance theory is a well-busted myth. Dogs do not have linear hierarchies, and are not trying to "rule the roost." Behaviors like this are from a lack of training and communication, not because the dog is trying to aggressively dominate you or your mother.

    Here is the Association of Pet Dog Trainers stance on dominance theory: http://www.apdt.com/about/ps/dominance.aspx

    An article on "Dog Whisperer Psychology;" basically an article on the sudden popularity in the media of dominance-themed training theory and why it is incorrect, also has a ton of good links at the bottom: http://www.4pawsu.com/dogpsychology.htm

    James O'Heare discussing "What's Wrong with Dominance" in an interview: http://www.associationofanimalbehaviorprofessionals.com/whats_wrong_with_dominance.html

    Now that that is covered, I want to cover another thing before I give advice, and that is correcting dogs for showing aggression. Despite my dislike of punishments altogether, I really must ask you please do not punish a dog for showing an aggressive response, and I will explain to you why.

    Aggression is a form of communication for dogs, whether it's a hard stare, freezing, growling, snarling, snapping, inhibited biting, or biting that draws blood, aggression is communication. Dogs can not verbally say "I do not want to get in the truck." So they have to resort to their body language to tell you, and in this case, it was aggression. Aggression is a way for dogs to say "I do not like this/what you are doing," "I am not comfortable with this situation, please stop," or "Do that thing I don't like again and I'll show you I mean it." So, as much as aggression may not be appropriate in these situations, please at least respect that your dog is openly trying to tell you something.

    So, for one thing, we do want our dogs to communicate with us. So punishing them for aggression is punishing them for communicating. How are we to know if they feel uncomfortable, scared, angry, upset, etc., if we take away their ways of telling us? Dogs display aggression for various reasons, and it's a very rare dog that randomly aggresses. So, we have to assume your dog is behaving aggressively for a reason. He's scared, in pain, uncomfortable, or unsure about a situation, or he just strongly dislikes it. Punishing a dog for expressing his discomfort will do absolutely nothing in getting him to feel comfortable about it. It does NOTHING to address his actual feelings (of dislike, distrust, fear, etc.) towards the stimulus causing the aggression, and could potentially cause an even greater dislike, because it is now associated with punishment. Rehabilitating dogs displaying aggressive behaviors should really be about making the dog feel comfortable in a situation or around a stimulus that before caused an aggressive response.

    To compound the issue, punishing a dog for aggression can cause dogs to "bite out of nowhere." You are taking away his ways of communicating every time you correct him for growling, snarling, hard stares, freezing, or snapping. Growling and snapping is often a way of saying "keep doing that and I will bite," so suppressing growling behavior (and other behaviors that happen prior to a dog biting) takes away all your warnings. So, you are taking away his ways to communicate, and doing nothing to make him feel comfortable in these situations, so he still feels uncomfortable/scared/unhappy/etc., and is still just as likely to bite as he was before. Often times I see dogs that bite out of nowhere are dogs that have previously been punished for growling (or similar behaviors) - they simply no longer use growling as a warning sign.

    So any training or "rehab" your dog should have, should be focused around showing him the situations/stimuli causing an aggressive response are not scary, not uncomfortable, not pain-inducing, and are something to be looked forward to and liked. So, if he bites when people pick him up, you should focus training on getting him to view being picked up as a positive experience.

    So, my advice would be lose the training collars, forget about them. Any sort of correction based training will NOT, in the long run, help you with his behavior. It may initially suppress ALL of his behavior, but it will do nothing to fix the root cause of the problem - the fact he dislikes whatever is causing him to behave aggressively.

    Now, my advice is get him to the vet to get a full check up. Get blood drawn, his thyroid checked, etc., and make sure his sudden aggressive response is not caused by a medical issue.

    Secondly, all medical tests showing nothing wrong, I'd get the help a behaviorist or dog-training professional who is experienced in dealing with aggressive dogs via positive methods, and that can help you get to the root of the problem, and help you re-train and re-socialize your dog. It sounds possible that he was not properly socialized and trained from the get-go, and is expressing his distrust/dislike/discomfort/confusion via aggressive behaviors. If you do NOT tackle this properly now (with an experienced positive-based trainer who is not going to punish your dog for growling), it will get worse.

    I would re-start your relationship with your dog. It sounds like he doesn't trust you or your family (which is easy to do with Cattle Dogs!), and needs some confidence and trust building exercises via low-pressure punishment-free training. 

    • Gold Top Dog
    Vet, vet, vet. Any sudden change in behavior warrants a trip to the vet.

    Pirate (even though he was an adult, from a shelter) used to growl and snap late at night if he 'woke up' wrong. Come to find out, he has epilepsy and his seizures are most frequently 10PM-12AM...I was probably rousing him at the wrong point in his seizure cycle and probably deserved what I got. At the time I had no idea he had epilepsy -- but I'm just trying to illustrate the point that not ALL behavior like that is ''dominance''.

    • Gold Top Dog

     Tenna has given you awesome advice.  I would suggest you take it.  I suspect that if you have been punishing him as if he were trying to be dominant, that you have actually increased his tendency to want to retaliate now that he is an adolescent - if you keep doing it, watch out when he's socially mature at fifteen months of age or so.  Normally, working and herding breeds like to be with their humans.  If you are calling him to you to make him do unpleasant things, or because he has done something you don't like and you want to issue the consequences, can you blame him for hiding?  Stop reaching for him, unless you eventually want to get bitten.  He's trying to tell you something! 

     

    More information on dominance theory and punishment:

    http://www.avsabonline.org/avsabonline/images/stories/Position_Statements/dominance%20statement.pdf

    http://www.avsabonline.org/avsabonline/images/stories/Position_Statements/Combined_Punishment_Statements.pdf

     

    www.clickerlessons.com

    http://www.cattledog.com/

     

    • Gold Top Dog

    spiritdogs

     Tenna has given you awesome advice.  I would suggest you take it. 

     

     

     

    I second that. Excellent, excellent post Tenna.

    • Silver

    Sorry it has taken me so long to reply!  I am trying to remember all the questions and comments so I can respond effectively so I'm sorry if I skip over them - please ask again!

    Rusty has been neutered since he was about 4 months old.  He has been to the vet and there are no medical problems associated with this behavior, as far as the vet could tell. 

    He is well socialized both with people and other dogs - I take him everywhere with me and we have people visit our house quite often and he is great with everyone and all dogs he has met.  I make him sit before anyone pets him and he knows "sit" "down" and we're working on "stay".

    He is crate trained. Recently, in coordination with this naughty behavior, will go into his crate, but then turn around and bite/bark at my hand while latching the crate closed.  THe other night my dad stayed up and when he came to bed tried to put Rusty in his crate.  Rusty ran around the kitchen for a good 5 minutes like he was doing the Daytona 500 aroudn the kitchen table and dad couldn't get him to come to him even with a treat - it's like a game to him. 

    As far as riding in the truck...he loves it!  He usually gets right in the truck as soon as I open the door and say "Rusty, get in the truck!" and I point and he jumps right in and is ready to go.  Even when he has just waited there and not jumped in, if I reached down to give him some assistance getting in, he has never growled at me or reacted like he did to my mom. He will also growl at her if he is on the couch and she tells him to get down - he does NOT growl at me (other than the barking while putting him in his crate like I decribed above). This is why I believe he is trying to exert dominance over my mom.  Cattle dogs are one-people dogs, usually, and will easily become the alpha pack member if you allow them to. They are hard-wired to be the boss and to work. 

    He gets a lot of running around time at our farm and inside we play ball a lot. I have read a little about NILIF and have incorporated steps like making him sit prior to giving him his breakfast/dinner, before I will throw his ball, etc.  He is very responsive to the commands and I've also incorporated hand signals with the verbal command and he is great. 

    In a nutshell, his "naughty" behavior comes to the surface when he is being told to do something he doesn't want to do - go in his crate, get off the couch, get int he truck, or be caught when he is loose and he runs around so you cannot catch him and he will not come even with a treat. However, if you say "Rusty, come!" and are outside he will come from wherever he just was and follow you. He is not on a leash while I do the horse chores and he stays right in my vicinity at all times and comes when I call. But sometimes will decide to come, just not within the distance with which I can re-attach his leash.

    SO...responses anyone? I'm positive I've missed answering some of the questions you folks had.

     

    • Gold Top Dog
    Sounds like you know your breed so that is good. And he is getting exercise. I suggest that he drag a leash around while he is in the house for a while. Practice making it a game to get off the couch. Tell him "up!" To get on then "ok off!" And toss a juicy smelly soft treat on the floor. Put it in front of his nose first then make a hand motion down to the floor. When he jumps off throw a party and give him a few more morsels by hand. Then rinse repeat 5 x or so. Once he figures out the game have your mom do it, dad, etc. At this point never grab for the coller.

    Look up crate games on the internet and on youtube to see some training exercises for that.

    Make everything super fun and become a treat dispenser for a while (this goes for your mom too). Also, your mom should be feeding him for about a month instead of you. Have her feed him by hand, a handful at a time. Put a name to it like "dinner", "breakfast".

    • Bronze

    Rusty's Momma
    This is why I believe he is trying to exert dominance over my mom.  Cattle dogs are one-people dogs, usually, and will easily become the alpha pack member if you allow them to. They are hard-wired to be the boss and to work. 

    Incorrect. Read again what Spiritdogs and myself have said, and the links we gave you. Dogs do not form linear hierarchies - this means dogs do not form packs with an alpha animal who rules the roost. They are definitely social animals, but dogs are NOT constantly vying for position as "top dog". The myth of dominance theory has been proven incorrect. So stop saying your dog is being aggressive because he wants to rule the roost and dominate you or your mother - he simply has not been trained properly and consistently by your entire family.

     Yes, Cattle Dogs are a breed who often ask "why?" They say "WHY do I need to get off the couch?" and "WHY do I need to get close enough to you?" They ask why and if you do not have a good enough reason, like, if you get off the couch you get tasty num nums and play time, or a just as comfy dog bed, or you should get close to me so that I can release back to having fun and/or give you tasty num nums, they won't do it. It's not about dominance, it's that there are competing motivators and doing what you have asked isn't going to get him good enough things.

    Rusty's Momma
    He has been to the vet and there are no medical problems associated with this behavior, as far as the vet could tell. 

    Have they done bloodwork and checked his thyroid?

    Rusty's Momma
    He is well socialized both with people and other dogs - I take him everywhere with me and we have people visit our house quite often and he is great with everyone and all dogs he has met.  I make him sit before anyone pets him and he knows "sit" "down" and we're working on "stay".

    Taking him everywhere is a great start, but have you made sure that everything has been a positive situation full of Good Things for Dogs like treats, toys, and affection? Socialization isn't effective if the dog is unhappy about being out and about. In fact it can make matters worse. So make sure he is having a happy and exciting experience when he's getting socialized, not just a neutral or even scary experience.

    Rusty's Momma
    Rusty ran around the kitchen for a good 5 minutes like he was doing the Daytona 500 aroudn the kitchen table and dad couldn't get him to come to him even with a treat - it's like a game to him. 

    Correct - it is a game for him. Dogs do what works for them, or what gets them Good Things for Dogs. Dogs do not do behaviors they do not "get something" out of. For example, if a dog is never rewarded for obeying commands (and is not punished for disobeying, but that's another story), they won't sit. If begging does not get them table scraps, they won't beg. If running around and barking like a lunatic was not fun and enjoyable, they would not do it. So, running around the kitchen is more entertaining than getting crated, and getting crated does not have a high enough reward. So, what is the dog going to choose? He's going to choose to run around the kitchen. You wouldn't go to work if you did not get paid enough, and a dog won't work for you if you aren't paying him enough in the form of motivators. What motivates every dog is different, so you have to find what he wants. High value treats, a certain toy or game, access to the outdoors or furniture, going for walks, etc.,

    Cattle Dogs can seem hard-headed and stubborn, but they are also very sensitive, personable, intelligent dogs. It sounds like you need a serious training overhaul, wherein you learn how to better train and communicate with him. Despite being stubborn, they do not take well to correction. They are sensitive, and you can very easily lose their trust in their owners if they are being heavy handed or dishing out too many corrections. Adding too many aversives or punishment to training can, just like with any other dog, cause learning to slow down and deteriorate, which in the end will make your job as a handler more difficult. So I suggest you stop with this dominance mumbo jumbo, and do not consider any sort of e-shock collars or prongs, and work on having a good, solid, trusting relationship between you and your dog (and between your dog and the rest of your family).

    To me, his behaviors sound like not everyone is consistent and involved in his training. I'd have your mother (and father) really work on getting a solid, positive, relationship with him. Have them do short training bursts (with no punishment or correction), make sure they are incorporating NILIF, and have them be the givers of Good Things for Dogs (but of course, only after he listens to their cues). So they should take a few moments to play ball with him, feed him, give him affection, etc. Take away his access to furniture, and after NILIF has been in the works with ALL family members for a good few weeks or a month, only allow him on the furniture when you ask him up, and if he refuses to get down, access is revoked. Dogs should only have access to furniture if they can be well behaved on it.

    It sounds like he would really benefit from the Premack Principle being used. The Premack Principle is where you use a behavior that a dog wants to do to reward and reinforce a behavior he does NOT want to do (eat your vegetables and you can have dessert). So, I would call him to you when he is out in the barn, and when he does a solid recall, release him to have fun again! You can also incorporate this with furniture access - tell him to get off and when he complies within a reasonable amount of time, allow him back up immediately after.

    • Gold Top Dog

    tenna

    Yes, Cattle Dogs are a breed who often ask "why?" They say "WHY do I need to get off the couch?" and "WHY do I need to get close enough to you?" They ask why and if you do not have a good enough reason, like, if you get off the couch you get tasty num nums and play time, or a just as comfy dog bed, or you should get close to me so that I can release back to having fun and/or give you tasty num nums, they won't do it. It's not about dominance, it's that there are competing motivators and doing what you have asked isn't going to get him good enough things.

     



    Most ACDs i have met have been smart intelligent dogs that love to work with their owners. I once worked with an ACD who was owned by a friend who hadn't learnt to heel in six months of yank and crank (they are nearly immune to it) and within just three clicks had the basics pretty well sorted.They are often quite food orientated.

    Today (it is 35 degrees celcius nearly 100 degrees in your numbers). I would be out training my ACD if i had one. My black poodles, well you would have to be joking...

    They share the need to know why with poodles..

    That dominance rubbish is poison to them