Do Confrontational Dog Training Methods Really Work?

Truley

denise m

spiritdogs

Hey, if you think what you are doing works, then keep doing it.  IMO, however, if your dog only behaves when you are in the room, you haven't taught an anti-counter surfing protocol, you have just taught the dog it's only ok to steal when her handler is out of the room.  If punishment was working, you wouldn't have to keep correcting your dog for stealing food.

 

Well I don't care if a dog is trained 100% positive or with corrections, the vast majority  of dogs left in a room long enough with some yummy food on the counter will likely go for it.  I know some of our members do have dogs that wouldn't take it and I applaud you. I tried to teach "an anti-counter surfing protocol" but it was never 100%. I couldn't train myself not to leave good things on the counter so why would I expect more from my dog?  

I agree with Denise. Expecting 100% compliance in all situations, no matter what the training style, is really expecting to much IMO.

In terms of food, instinct and temptations need to be accounted in actions. I do not hold with dogs getting up on counters or into garbage cans for any reason, but I do understand that sometimes temptation can overtake training, ALL training. The best way to stop temptation is to not leave food and garbage cans out for them to get into. Period. Now,  I can and do leave food out here because Kord has never even attempted to grab anything, in fact I currently have 2 lbs of meat destined to be turned into meatloaf thawing on the counter. He has shown no interest what so ever. Wow, great and fantastic....except under that trained, perfect dog exterior , lies a wanton, stealing, treacherous canned cat food thief.(laugh here folks)

The set up. Wake up, let Kord out, feed rabbit, feed canned food to cats, start shower, fill Kord's bowl, let him in, tell him it's ok to eat (yes, he still waits for the ok) get in shower. Listen.....listen......safe today, but tomorrow it could be different. I blame the smell, some days it overtakes his better side and lets the ugly side out and he tries, but all it takes is a leave it or me saying his name to make him slink into the bedroom to concoct some kind of believable alibi. It doesn't work, and all I do is give him a look, and his demeanor changes, I get I'm sorry, but the devil made me do it. I don't make it a battle, because in the end the cat food is harmless, but getting on my table is not and I do not, for me and my dog, consider this a huge thing, just a personal thing.

And still on topic, help me out here. Someone mentioned ( I forget who) that making their dog get a nail trim or some such,  was a frightening experience for their dog, and another member said that was awful that they allowed that. Well, that brings me to my problem. Giving medication. Kord hates it, but I'm sorry he has to take pills daily, and will probably at this stage, have to for a good long time, if not the rest of his life. I am sorry that it has to be, but I am going to my part and make him take the dang things. Yes, MAKE HIM. I make it as painless as possible, no harsh words or actions, I try to make it a happy time, but he is not buying it. One thing I can say is this dog is all about routine, don't mess with it and your day goes smooth, screw it up and he gets upset with it faster. There is no other way to describe it, it is confrontational, and it is not by choice. So, how would you handle it? In a positive, non confrontational way? Here are some facts. He knows which cabinet they are in, he knows the sound of the dish I have them in, I do it twice a day. I can give them with no problems now, my husband struggles. He is happy and carefree right after wards. The am pills are with food, the pm are not.

denise m

I wasn't the perfect dog owner and he wasn't the perfect dog.  

Thank goodness, I'm not alone.

I always tell my students that they need to train their dogs with their own expectations in mind:-)  So, all the "imperfect dog owners" who choose not to teach an obedience heel can walk their dogs on an EW Harness, and all the people who understand dogs' predilection for taking stuff off the counter or coffee table can try to remind themselves to keep the counter free of things that Fido wants.

There are times when aversives might need to be applied, to treat an illness or injury or to save a dog's life.  And, there are times when just a little extra thought can help avoid the use of an aversive even in those situations.  Two of my dogs think that their pills are a conditioned stimulus - they predict the cookie that will invariably follow, and the dogs are happy when I pull their pills out.  But, one of them is not so easy.  So, if he needs a pill, it's in peanut butter, and I just lift up on the spoon a bit until the whole sticky mess is on the roof of his mouth just behind his front teeth.  He thinks I'm wonderful for giving him peanut butter snacks.  Not saying that works for every dog, but I never give up trying to think of the most positive things I can do to make things more pleasant for my dogs, even when I need to medicate them or do something they are not fond of because it's in their best interest.

espencer

tenna

As punishment does not cause a behavior to become extinct, the behavior will eventually pop back up unless an incompatible behavior is trained in the interim.

Wrong, my dog ignores wild rabbits completely after i used leash re directions to avoid going after them. He just keeps walking and i dont see fear on his eyes either thinking that another leash re direction might come

I never saw fear in Penny's eyes, either... until I'd raised an animal with minimal aversives and realised I'd just missed it. 

tenna

Also, aversives and punishment cause a dog to associate you with bad things. I don't want my dog to think I produce Bad Things for Dogs. Why would I want him to be afraid of me?

 

Wrong again, my dog tries to initiate play most of the times even when i have used corrections before, he still comes to me and wags his tail every time i come home

 Yep, so did Penny. She adored me and worshipped the ground I walked on. Just made it that much more heartbreaking when I realised she was a little intimidated by me. Compared to every other animal I've worked with, dogs are remarkably forgiving of bad handling. They don't always tell you loud and clear that they don't like something, and if they do they are branded as problem dogs or dominant. 

tenna

Sure, aversives can produce results. They can suppress behaviors you don't like (and ones you do!)

 

Wrong once again, even when my dog ignores wild rabbits, he is very eager to chase his stuffed duck attached to his flirt pole

Dogs are smarter than you think, they know who, when, where they can do things with an specific person/item and when they cant

The chase of a wild rabbit is 10,000 times better for mi dog that any dead piece of meat that i could offer instead. He has a LIVE piece of meat inviting him to be chased. The reward of the hunt is 10,000 times better than a new york steak on a silver platter

Timed leash re directions did the trick for me and might saved my dog's life from being a road kill while chasing one of those wild rabbits

My dog's most favourite thing in the world to do is play with other dogs. The food rewards I used to teach him to come when called were not as good as games with other dogs for him. All the same, he breaks away from boisterous games with other dogs when I call him. It's just conditioning, and it's really powerful stuff. He does it without thinking. A couple of months ago I accidentally let his leash go when he saw some cockatoos on the side of the road and he ran for the road to go after them. I emergency recalled him and he turned on a pinhead and came galloping back, no hesitation. I taught that without a leash or any form of restraint. He still gets to have fun chasing birds sometimes, but we do it together and it serves as a relationship building exercise.

I was still using voice corrections for Kivi, but with Erik I abandoned even "ah ah" and it's very liberating. I hadn't realised how high maintenance even basic conditioned punishers were until I abandoned them. If Erik starts poking around something he's not meant to be poking around, I need only say "Erik, what are you doing?" and he instantly comes trotting over wagging his tail and waiting to see what kind of interaction he's going to get. It's not rewarding the behaviour I don't want because it doesn't increase. Bizarrely, I think it actually decreases. I'm not really sure how that works. Perhaps by distracting him every time he thinks about something he eventually forgets about it. In contrast, Kivi ignores most of my verbal interruptors because I inadvertently taught him to. He's not silly. He knows he can get away with something if I'm too far away to stop him. I'm finding it ever so much easier to distract Erik from doing things than Kivi. Erik has been conditioned to think that interruption means there's a high chance of reward coming from a person, so he completes it for himself by running over to us. It's so freaking easy and effective I can't understand why everyone persists with the verbal corrections. Why didn't someone tell me earlier??

It's so freaking easy and effective I can't understand why everyone persists with the verbal corrections. Why didn't someone tell me earlier??

I think I did.   Seriously, though, everyone has to come to it in their own time.  Once you do it, you realize how powerful it is.  And, sadly, it isn't until you abandon the corrections that you realize you didn't need them.  If you persist in using corrections, you never get the full picture.  It's hard to abandon what you think has been working well for you, but once you make that leap of faith...well, you know.

spiritdogs

It's so freaking easy and effective I can't understand why everyone persists with the verbal corrections. Why didn't someone tell me earlier??

I think I did.   Seriously, though, everyone has to come to it in their own time.  Once you do it, you realize how powerful it is.  And, sadly, it isn't until you abandon the corrections that you realize you didn't need them.  If you persist in using corrections, you never get the full picture.  It's hard to abandon what you think has been working well for you, but once you make that leap of faith...well, you know.

Yeah, I would say so. And you weren't the only one, and I even believed it, but it's like a lot of things in life. You can believe it in theory but it's not until you do it in practice that you really appreciate it. Old habits like reacting to your dog instead of being pro-active die hard and as a result I keep having to tell Kivi to leave the Christmas wrapping things on the coffee table alone whereas Erik only had to be asked once. At least I can say that I'm improving with each dog!

I keep saying that it took seeing an animal raised without punishments for me to really see the effect they had had on Penny, but if someone had told me that when I was being told by all and sundry that Penny was a great dog and would let me do anything to her, I don't think I would have believed them. So I can't really blame people for dismissing the experiences I've had. Sometimes you've just got to have them yourself before they mean anything to you. When I hear people make assertions about the challenge of rewards competing with environmental rewards, and how much faster corrections are, I am coming to wonder if they have tried reward-based training at all. Tried it properly the clicker training way, not the training with a clicker way.

All I can say is, how can you (the folks that use corrections) know confrontational methods do everything you say they do without the impacts others say they have if you've never tried going without them? You've got no comparison to make.

corvus

My dog's most favourite thing in the world to do is play with other dogs. The food rewards I used to teach him to come when called were not as good as games with other dogs for him. All the same, he breaks away from boisterous games with other dogs when I call him. It's just conditioning, and it's really powerful stuff. He does it without thinking. A couple of months ago I accidentally let his leash go when he saw some cockatoos on the side of the road and he ran for the road to go after them. I emergency recalled him and he turned on a pinhead and came galloping back, no hesitation. I taught that without a leash or any form of restraint. He still gets to have fun chasing birds sometimes, but we do it together and it serves as a relationship building exercise.

Oh yes. I am fairly strict on terminology and as far as i am concerned an NRM is just fancy footwork to allow yourself to use some P+. What others do i guess is there concern. I work on not using them, and have got better with time.

 Now my young boy Sam is entire. every girl dog is a miracle as far as he seems. He is attracted to any other dog, they are all wonderful to him. Now if i was a mainline trainer he would have no neck left , he would be immune to verbal corrections and he would still be very interested in other dogs when i was working with him. I have seen it so often before.

What i have been doing is rewarding good work with a play with the dogs, running to the birdies with him, play playing with him and putting the verbals where they belong somewhere in storage for a very rainy day. I know that on many forums that i would get shouted down for this statement , we would suddenly have all these special case dogs and handlers.

Sorry folks, I don't believe you. For many years i thought i was lucky i really know now that it is how i train....of my dogs so far read

Labrador, so drivery got Tch at 13 1/2 . I have a video of him tracking at 14 1/2 in a competition . How special is that??

Luci who as a puppy screamed when left alone, and has a missing canine and suffered severe noise phobias. Have a look at her videos. This dog has no idea of punishment, yet she is the one with the highest score on a bad weather day, who tracks when the weather is really bad and earns best dog of the day. How special is she too??

 Sam  . I have had him 5 months. Spent 13 months in kennels being shown. spent 3 months in a house where he "was a problem".  He was so used to be yelled at that when i got him he basically ignored human voices. Yet he is the sweetest gentlest dog... I really go overboard to make my communication with him effective. It means NO corrections. How special is that??

What i have seen so often is that Aversives and corrections cover up poor handling and training skills and knowledge. They need to be sold and often are.. you all have heard the key phrases..

of course we know that all police K9s are corrected,

you can't get them in the ring unless you tell them who is boss...

Everyone uses them.

 do you think Luci ever asks the question? does it matter?

When i first tried the "look at that game" and it works so well, I was just a little angry at all the  frauds who insist that corrections are what is required for aggression. There are of course  many other methods that are pretty good to.

I read this trite nonsense about the prey being worth 10000 times the value of a piece of meat in my hand and despair and know at this moment at least several dozen training gurus will be selling this idea along with what ever Aversives they have in their tool box.

I will walk out of a ring despite losing a pass card if Madam moves towards the bridies in the seekback. Becuase i do this, some old timers think i am one of them, a hard nosed trad trainer :))) It has worked too.

poodleOwned

What i have been doing is rewarding good work with a play with the dogs, running to the birdies with him, play playing with him and putting the verbals where they belong somewhere in storage for a very rainy day. I know that on many forums that i would get shouted down for this statement , we would suddenly have all these special case dogs and handlers.

 (I'm sure you know, but to those that don't!) This is called the Premack Principle. It's about using high probability behaviors (what a dog wants to do) to reinforce low probability behaviors (what you want your dog to do). It can be a hugely powerful tool in dog training, and I wish more people used it and understood it!

At least I can say that I'm improving with each dog!

 That's how those of us who "get it" did so.  We improved with every dog, just like you!  And, as for me, I'm still trying to do that. 

Tenna brought up a great point, and Premack is how I taught Sequoyah that horses were a no no.  She gets to "herd" her frisbee if she leaves Miles alone.  She understands that sheep are "yes" and he is a "no" (although, of course, I don't say "no", I just tell her to lie down and stay.  

I have to disagree a little on the NRM.  I think that if you use it as information, not as a "correction" or to startle the dog, it's fine.  My dogs understand "too bad" or "oops" to mean that they should just try again because no reward is coming.  I seldom use it, but for some behaviors I did - it seemed helpful to Sequoyah, who is so driven to get things right.  Anyone who owns stock dog type Aussies gets that dynamic, lol.  They have a certain odd (edited to say - who knew you couldn't use a perfectly legitimate word meaning "odd" on idog, because it is also sometimes used as a sexual orientation slur) ethic about it.

spiritdogs

I have to disagree a little on the NRM.  I think that if you use it as information, not as a "correction" or to startle the dog, it's fine.  My dogs understand "too bad" or "oops" to mean that they should just try again because no reward is coming. 

I agree here. I do not use NRM simply because I never got into the habit, and will not start now, but I really just see it as an event marker, just like a clicker. Except the event is not "you earned a treat" but "you didn't earn a treat." Whether someone wants to technically call it positive punishment or not, I guess I don't really care. Technically I guess it is an aversive as not getting a treat is unpleasant, but I think people who argue clicker trainers still use punishment and aversives in training because of witholding treats or using NRMs are just grasping at straws. But that's just my own personal opinion. :)

tenna

Technically I guess it is an aversive as not getting a treat is unpleasant, but I think people who argue clicker trainers still use punishment and aversives in training because of witholding treats or using NRMs are just grasping at straws. But that's just my own personal opinion. :)

I pretty much agree here, pretty much the grasping at straws bit. I am a bit of a purist with my own dogs because that is what suits them. They don't get NRMs. They seem to think that not getting a reward is a signal to try harder. You have to be very gentle with them. I find it hard at my height relative to my dogs.In earlier times i did use a few NRMS but it seemed that she was flinching a bit from them . It may well have been poor voice modulation on my part.

I actually have a wide range of training options that i feel confrtable that others may use, but many are not for me and my dogs.I would certainly find Dildei and Booth acceptable for many of the working line Shutzhund dogs or even some working labs, but way too much for my poodles. 

Luci my oldest is so literal. Soon i will do a video of her and her drop signals to show what i mean. If she hasn't got a reward, she will be trying for another before you get chance of an NRM.

tenna

spiritdogs

I have to disagree a little on the NRM.  I think that if you use it as information, not as a "correction" or to startle the dog, it's fine.  My dogs understand "too bad" or "oops" to mean that they should just try again because no reward is coming. 

I agree here. I do not use NRM simply because I never got into the habit, and will not start now, but I really just see it as an event marker, just like a clicker. Except the event is not "you earned a treat" but "you didn't earn a treat."

I think of it like the "hot an cold game" - you know, where you hide an object, and then someone has to find it and you give them clues by telling them they are getting hotter as they get closer, and colder as they move away. 

Some dogs appreciate being told "colder" occasionally, because it helps them get it right - some dogs are too sensitive, find it too aversive and discouraging, and do better to be told warmer.... even if you have to FIND something "warm" about what they offered, or re-try and make it simpler, with lower criteria.  With both types of dogs, it's all about helping them succeed, and yet again.... it's all about knowing what motivates the dog you are working with.  I think it is also about being aware of what de-motivates them....

I have never seen R+ demotivate any dog so far, so to me, it is the least risky option, the one that is least likely to damage the dog, or his ability to learn.  A lot of things can seem innocuous, because  they won't damage the dog - but they will/might damage his ability to learn.

[Edit - NB "ability to learn" - not "willingness to learn".  I see a lot of people say "oh well I used P+ and my dog is still happy to train/work with me...."  I don't dispute that at all, and I agree with corvus that dogs are extraordinarily forgiving with us on a lot of things!  Though his tail might still wag and he might still enjoy his work, I'm speculating that the same dog would be better ABLE to learn had a different method been used.  I suppose it's a moot point, as there is no way to turn the clock back and use a different method on the same beast for comparison..... but I do find it odd that of all the people I know of who have TRIED abandoning P+, no one has looked back....  So I guess they are all happier with how it works with dogs across the board?]

I believe I am one of the latter types (minimal or no "cold" please), so I am sympathetic when I see it in a dog... it's not my choice to be that way, after all.  I honestly believe it is neurological, and it's all to do with how the brain is wired.

Like anything else, and NRM is only an NRM depending on the dog's behaviour. Some dogs cannot tolerate "failure" in the sense that they have done something "wrong". Some dogs do find NRM's to be punishing, even when used as a conditioned word to mean "try something else".

I don't use them now, I've found I don't really need to, although I did for some time use them when I learned about them, as I do like to try things out, and I found they have very different results depending on the dog's confidence and personality. Some dogs take it as plain old information, and other dogs find it highly upsetting. But in the end I just improved my shaping skills such that NRM's aren't necessary because I start so small and build up that the dogs barely have time to do the "wrong" thing - I work to make it so easy for them to do the right thing that they just keep building on their successes.

 I used a NRM marker last time around, but for Luke, I haven't used one. However, I also didn't use any prompting/luring when I taught him early on. I captured and/or shaped the stuff he learned early on. I have found that for him, he seems to figure out what I want, and he'll do it a few times. Then, he'll go through a brief, "I have no idea what you want," phase, where he'll bark like an idiot and/or throw other behaviors. This I suppose would be the place for a NRM, or initially, in classes, I was told to go in and lure him. I don't, since I know him well enough to know he'll do it for a little bit, then he'll go back to what we were working on. He also appears to go through, when something is difficult, and maybe I think uncomfortable for him, a period of appearing to forget a few days after learning. Down has been "forgotten" in this manner a few times. Roll over hasn't been perfected yet. I can guide him through sometimes with no treat, and almost definitely with one. Still though, the other day, he wasn't going to do it no matter I had for him. I think for him, an NRM might shut him down completely.

 Ah, that sounds just like Kivi. Kivi does much better if I move in baby steps and keep it REALLY easy with a really high reward rate.

Erik tends to seize on whatever he learnt last. He sometimes has trouble remembering what everything means, so if he's not sure he just does whatever his latest trick is. It cracks me up, but it's all right with Erik because you can see he's just groping around in his mind for the right response and he's still having fun. When he hits on the right thing his little eyes just light up. It's beautiful! Kivi, though, he does it usually because he's finding it all too hard. If he tries something else when he's finding it too hard and I don't reward it, I end up with a Lapphund lying on my foot whining at me. I started teaching both the boys to go to their mats at the same time. Erik got it, but Kivi didn't. Kivi needs my full undivided attention and he needs it to be bleeding obvious that he's on the right track.

I started with NRMs as well, but gave up on them. I was concentrating so much on my human impulse to communicate verbally that I think I was just making it harder for Kivi to understand. I don't think I'll go back to them, but you never know. Erik doesn't need them and I find I concentrate better when I'm not verbalising all the time.

With Nikon, some rewards (read: BALLS) are soooooo motivating that an NRM is pointless.  He doesn't even hear it.  As far as he is concerned, the ball is still in my pocket and not in his mouth so there's no NRM needed.  Using food, he does not lock into drive (at least not as quickly), and the NRM becomes a more useful tool.  He is thinking more clearly and is actually far more operant/proactive when training with food than for the ball even though the ball brings the most drive.

Because Kenya is so sensitive, I have to be sure the NRM is not perceived as a verbal correction.  She would be far more inclined to perceive it as a correction and be negatively affected.

Across the board I find NRMs more useful for me and my timing than useful for the dog.  I think it helps me vocalize to myself what worked, what didn't, if the dog had performed correctly when s/he would have received the reward as opposed to the NRM, etc.  It's just another way to practice timing and delivery.

corvus

 Ah, that sounds just like Kivi. Kivi does much better if I move in baby steps and keep it REALLY easy with a really high reward rate.

Erik tends to seize on whatever he learnt last. He sometimes has trouble remembering what everything means, so if he's not sure he just does whatever his latest trick is. It cracks me up, but it's all right with Erik because you can see he's just groping around in his mind for the right response and he's still having fun. When he hits on the right thing his little eyes just light up. It's beautiful! Kivi, though, he does it usually because he's finding it all too hard. If he tries something else when he's finding it too hard and I don't reward it, I end up with a Lapphund lying on my foot whining at me. I started teaching both the boys to go to their mats at the same time. Erik got it, but Kivi didn't. Kivi needs my full undivided attention and he needs it to be bleeding obvious that he's on the right track.

I started with NRMs as well, but gave up on them. I was concentrating so much on my human impulse to communicate verbally that I think I was just making it harder for Kivi to understand. I don't think I'll go back to them, but you never know. Erik doesn't need them and I find I concentrate better when I'm not verbalising all the time.

That sounds just like it. He's a barkinator as I call him. But that barking is his think time. I really do believe he knows exactly what I'm asking, but he has to just check and make sure he can't get reinforced for anything else. Max was the type that just went through a bunch of stuff then gave up.

I'm sorta feeling a need to, in the future, test out several pairs of dogs, training one by capturing and free shaping, and the other by luring, to see how this effects their learning behavior.