Do Confrontational Dog Training Methods Really Work?

denise m

...so now the question becomes "Do Confrontational Methods work any better with Humans?" LOL! 

Actually, one thing I really respect about my two trainers is that if I'm doing something wrong they are not afraid to step in and say "stop it, look how you are confusing your dog".  I've seen people cry and get all worked up over things during our training but I don't take it personally.  The trainer has the dog's best interests in mind.  I should be grateful for that even if it means telling me I'm an idiot! lol

Liesje

denise m

...so now the question becomes "Do Confrontational Methods work any better with Humans?" LOL! 

 

Actually, one thing I really respect about my two trainers is that if I'm doing something wrong they are not afraid to step in and say "stop it, look how you are confusing your dog".  I've seen people cry and get all worked up over things during our training but I don't take it personally.  The trainer has the dog's best interests in mind.  I should be grateful for that even if it means telling me I'm an idiot! lol

But do they tell you you're an idiot then leave you there to wonder how you're supposed to do it? If they didn't, you'd just be there, knowing you're wrong, but with no clue about what you should do. 

I'm not completely against the use of aversives with dogs or human. It's a separate discussion, but I've seen what happens with a blanket policy against them. There are some people, dogs, some other animals, who are so engaged in a problem behavior, that it's necessary to use an aversive to interrupt the problem behavior in order to have the chance to teach something else.

griffinej5

Liesje

denise m

...so now the question becomes "Do Confrontational Methods work any better with Humans?" LOL! 

 

Actually, one thing I really respect about my two trainers is that if I'm doing something wrong they are not afraid to step in and say "stop it, look how you are confusing your dog".  I've seen people cry and get all worked up over things during our training but I don't take it personally.  The trainer has the dog's best interests in mind.  I should be grateful for that even if it means telling me I'm an idiot! lol

 

But do they tell you you're an idiot then leave you there to wonder how you're supposed to do it? If they didn't, you'd just be there, knowing you're wrong, but with no clue about what you should do. 

There are times that people do get offended or overly emotional about it.  I've heard trainers say "We don't do it this way because that is stupid and makes no sense."  They are not skirting around the issue.  If it doesn't work and is wrong for the dog, then there's no point in trying to put it nicely.  Sometimes yes, you have to let the person think about it for a minute and not just spoon feed them everything.  I do most of my training in "club" settings, which is different than a training "class" where there is a trainer that is getting paid to lead the class.  In the club setting, everyone is paying the same amount to be there, even the Training Director who kind of oversees everything/everyone.  You burn out pretty fast when everyone expects the same one or two people to show them how to do every little thing.  I personally learn the most from watching the TD work his own dogs and compare that in my mind to what I am doing rather than him show me what to do.

I've seen in this thread and others where people seem to be assuming that using aversives leaves the dog clueless.  I train with plenty of people who use aversives to various degrees and I have never ever met or trained with someone who uses any sort of aversive method without also pairing it with release/reward and training the desired behavior at the same time.  I've never done a single training session with my dog without at least one reward on my person.  Usually I have a ball, a tug, and treats in my pockets.  It is a fair critique, but to be honest it is not really a concern of mine since no one I know actually "trains" (if you can call it that) this way.  Maybe I'm just lucky...?

Liesje

Sometimes yes, you have to let the person think about it for a minute and not just spoon feed them everything.  I do most of my training in "club" settings, which is different than a training "class" where there is a trainer that is getting paid to lead the class.  In the club setting, everyone is paying the same amount to be there, even the Training Director who kind of oversees everything/everyone.  You burn out pretty fast when everyone expects the same one or two people to show them how to do every little thing.

Hi

I think that one of the main differences between humans and dogs is the level of cognition.

Like anything, for me there is a lot going on below the surface. Last year i was working with a great group of people that were changing the way people were being taught in a dog club here. We worked ourselves to the bone introducing new syllabi and taking workshops and making videos .

Suprsingly (i think for some forum members) I did not support the banning or removal of the traditional methods, i just wanted to see limits put around them. Banning anything makes it attractive.

At the beggining of the year we lost a huge number of people because of the GFC. We live in the poorer outer suburbs. Suddenly we could not carry through the porgramme and a small group of people who previously had been a minor vocal nuisnance became a major nuisance. I call it the fog horn effect. Very loud mouths very low effort and ability I didn't confront, clubs are democracies and if you don't like it you leave.

. I did burn out. I was standing in front of a trialling class, with one trainer trying to heel in gum boots, another that had popped along ot a more aversive based club and was correcting the hell our of a very soft dog,  a couple of aggressive GSDs, a chiuaua barking it's head off . I thought that i wouls go back to basics and talk about how to motivate your dogs. I did the food bit, and then when i started to talk about playing with your dog, most of the class walked out. It is a common ethos here that tuggies teaches your dog to be dominant.:((

I started my own training group after that and have been having a ball.

Would confrontation have changed anything? Well i don't know but i think that club rules and policies should have been enforced. But being one of the people that should have done the enforcing I will take it on the chin.

Now, i am a bit like the old dog in the corner that is just had enough and is gone a bit reactive. Many of the forum conversations in Australia become how loud can you yell competitions and the truth goes for a holiday. I am the first to admit  that i will always lose these competitions, that i don't have great communication skills in these areas . But i do have something valuable to say, can back it up with my dogs deeds and actions, and believe after these years of learning and practice that i deserve the space to say it .Soon i will post some clips of my dogs in action.

May be a bit of tracking and my oldest dog doing a UD round. Some USA people might find our UD a bit interesting , it is a little different form yours. Teaching and competing in UD is difficult. It is a hard title to get . Stuff all dogs manage it. 

Just a note, I differentiate between "training" and doing behavior mod.  To me, training a dog for the CD or his SchH obedience or a rally course is different than trying to make aggression or reactivity extinct.  When I am doing a "training" session, it sort of implies that my dog is ready and willing to work, he has a clear head and is focused (largely because I have managed the environment).  I would not use aversives to deal with things like aggression, barking, reactivity, etc because often the dog is already flustered, upset, confused.  Just the fact that you (general you) are dealing with these behaviors implies there's already a problem with communication and that the dog is not clear headed at that moment. 

huski

 

Sorry, I should have been clearer. I wasn't talking about using punishment/aversives alone to train a dog out of a behaviour. 

Perhaps my dogs are different to yours. If they don't see that they can get success with a particular behaviour they've won't pull it out again. They'll use what they know works instead.

It depends on how you define "success"--I think it varies depending on the dog and the action.  Jack has this thing where he likes to jump on our side door when he is outside and look in.  I don't open the door for him when he does this because I don't want him on the door.  He has to be "four on the floor" for me to let him in.  In addition, this jumping up and staring in habit really annoys our other dog Sally for some reason and she "punishes" him repeatedly when he does this by jumping on him and knocking him off the door and onto the deck.  he just gets back up on the door.  Sally will correct him repeatedly, I'll not allow him to come in, and he still does it.  Whatever he gets out of being up on that door is worth it to him.

huski

spiritdogs

I never knew such pleasure until I had dogs that actually worked for the sheer joy of being able to offer behavior they know will produce something great for them.

 

My dog has been punished for things that aren't life threatening (i.e a stern voice correction to interrupt her stealing food off the table, or the slightest leash tug on her flat collar). She LOVES to work. Punishments have not lessened her ability to offer behaviours or her joy to work.  Or did you see something different to what I see in the video I posted?

If you fail to use management or prevention as well as you might, so that your dog is less tempted, and does not get reinforced (or corrected, for that matter), for stealing from the table, then it's likelier you will feel you have to "correct" her.    Once you learn to manage the environment and couple it with some positive reinforcement of an alternative ("go to ma", perhaps) then you can start not having to do that.

Liesje

Just a note, I differentiate between "training" and doing behavior mod.  To me, training a dog for the CD or his SchH obedience or a rally course is different than trying to make aggression or reactivity extinct.  When I am doing a "training" session, it sort of implies that my dog is ready and willing to work, he has a clear head and is focused (largely because I have managed the environment).  I would not use aversives to deal with things like aggression, barking, reactivity, etc because often the dog is already flustered, upset, confused.  Just the fact that you (general you) are dealing with these behaviors implies there's already a problem with communication and that the dog is not clear headed at that moment. 

I wouldn't speak for her, but my guess is that Karen Pryor might disagree.  I think she might say "It's just behavior" and you can modify it.  So, a "sit" or a "front" is behavior, just as barking at a passing dog is behavior.  In every case, you are either trying either to encourage behavior (heel nicely and sit when I stop) or discourage behavior (don't sit with your butt crooked, or don't bark at passing dogs).   In that way, training is not so different from behavior modification, in fact it is behavior modification.  Once you start looking at it that way, just working to enhance or reduce discrete behaviors, it gets a lot less emotional, and easier to form a plan.  JMHO, though. 

spiritdogs

If you fail to use management or prevention as well as you might, so that your dog is less tempted, and does not get reinforced (or corrected, for that matter), for stealing from the table, then it's likelier you will feel you have to "correct" her.    Once you learn to manage the environment and couple it with some positive reinforcement of an alternative ("go to ma", perhaps) then you can start not having to do that.

I'd rather correct her with a quick 'ah ah' then have her eat the food (to use the stealing from the table example) and be reinforced for the behaviour.

Is it the only thing I have done to teach her self control? No, but if it came down to a choice between giving a voice correction and letting her reward herself and reinforce the behaviour, or eat something dangerous, I will always choose the former.

Don't get me wrong, she has pretty excellent self control but occasionally she is tempted (not when I'm in the room, but when she's alone). Now I could walk into the kitchen and catch her trying to steal food from the table, I could tell her to 'down' from the doorway, meters away from her, knock the food on the floor when she's in the down position and she won't touch it until I give her the ok. But being able to do that wasn't always the case, training that self control took a bit of time. I've caught her frantically eating a bowl that was full of raw chilli - did I give her a voice correction to attempt to interrupt her? You bet I did. Was that better than her eating the raw chilli? IMO, it sure was!

huski

spiritdogs

If you fail to use management or prevention as well as you might, so that your dog is less tempted, and does not get reinforced (or corrected, for that matter), for stealing from the table, then it's likelier you will feel you have to "correct" her.    Once you learn to manage the environment and couple it with some positive reinforcement of an alternative ("go to ma", perhaps) then you can start not having to do that.

 

I'd rather correct her with a quick 'ah ah' then have her eat the food (to use the stealing from the table example) and be reinforced for the behaviour.

Is it the only thing I have done to teach her self control? No, but if it came down to a choice between giving a voice correction and letting her reward herself and reinforce the behaviour, or eat something dangerous, I will always choose the former.

Don't get me wrong, she has pretty excellent self control but occasionally she is tempted (not when I'm in the room, but when she's alone). Now I could walk into the kitchen and catch her trying to steal food from the table, I could tell her to 'down' from the doorway, meters away from her, knock the food on the floor when she's in the down position and she won't touch it until I give her the ok. But being able to do that wasn't always the case, training that self control took a bit of time. I've caught her frantically eating a bowl that was full of raw chilli - did I give her a voice correction to attempt to interrupt her? You bet I did. Was that better than her eating the raw chilli? IMO, it sure was!

Hey, if you think what you are doing works, then keep doing it.  IMO, however, if your dog only behaves when you are in the room, you haven't taught an anti-counter surfing protocol, you have just taught the dog it's only ok to steal when her handler is out of the room.  If punishment was working, you wouldn't have to keep correcting your dog for stealing food. 

spiritdogs

Hey, if you think what you are doing works, then keep doing it.  IMO, however, if your dog only behaves when you are in the room, you haven't taught an anti-counter surfing protocol, you have just taught the dog it's only ok to steal when her handler is out of the room.  If punishment was working, you wouldn't have to keep correcting your dog for stealing food. 

The times she'd try to counter surf now are incredibly rare, and to be honest, it's a behaviour I've gotten lazy with training because it now happens so rarely. This was a dog who used to steal food at any opportunity, who had no self control around food - she would steal food off plates while you were eating, she would steal food out of the bin, she would steal food that was within her reach on any counter top. She would barge through the door to get the cat's food, she would open containers and gorge herself on whatever she could find. To really understand how dramatically her behaviour has changed now you'd have to understand how bad it used to be.

And like I said... using a voice correction when she was about to eat something dangerous (i.e. raw chilli) seemed like a far better alternative to letting her eat it to me. Unless you think it would have been better to let her eat it, instead of giving a voice correction to interrupt the behaviour? Keeping in mind that punishment was not how I taught her self control.

spiritdogs

Hey, if you think what you are doing works, then keep doing it.  IMO, however, if your dog only behaves when you are in the room, you haven't taught an anti-counter surfing protocol, you have just taught the dog it's only ok to steal when her handler is out of the room.  If punishment was working, you wouldn't have to keep correcting your dog for stealing food.

Well I don't care if a dog is trained 100% positive or with corrections, the vast majority  of dogs left in a room long enough with some yummy food on the counter will likely go for it.  I know some of our members do have dogs that wouldn't take it and I applaud you. I tried to teach "an anti-counter surfing protocol" but it was never 100%. I couldn't train myself not to leave good things on the counter so why would I expect more from my dog?

Kobi and I had a mutual understanding. I wasn't the perfect dog owner and he wasn't the perfect dog.  

denise m

spiritdogs

Hey, if you think what you are doing works, then keep doing it.  IMO, however, if your dog only behaves when you are in the room, you haven't taught an anti-counter surfing protocol, you have just taught the dog it's only ok to steal when her handler is out of the room.  If punishment was working, you wouldn't have to keep correcting your dog for stealing food.

 

Well I don't care if a dog is trained 100% positive or with corrections, the vast majority  of dogs left in a room long enough with some yummy food on the counter will likely go for it.  I know some of our members do have dogs that wouldn't take it and I applaud you. I tried to teach "an anti-counter surfing protocol" but it was never 100%. I couldn't train myself not to leave good things on the counter so why would I expect more from my dog?  

I agree with Denise. Expecting 100% compliance in all situations, no matter what the training style, is really expecting to much IMO.

In terms of food, instinct and temptations need to be accounted in actions. I do not hold with dogs getting up on counters or into garbage cans for any reason, but I do understand that sometimes temptation can overtake training, ALL training. The best way to stop temptation is to not leave food and garbage cans out for them to get into. Period. Now,  I can and do leave food out here because Kord has never even attempted to grab anything, in fact I currently have 2 lbs of meat destined to be turned into meatloaf thawing on the counter. He has shown no interest what so ever. Wow, great and fantastic....except under that trained, perfect dog exterior , lies a wanton, stealing, treacherous canned cat food thief.(laugh here folks)

The set up. Wake up, let Kord out, feed rabbit, feed canned food to cats, start shower, fill Kord's bowl, let him in, tell him it's ok to eat (yes, he still waits for the ok) get in shower. Listen.....listen......safe today, but tomorrow it could be different. I blame the smell, some days it overtakes his better side and lets the ugly side out and he tries, but all it takes is a leave it or me saying his name to make him slink into the bedroom to concoct some kind of believable alibi. It doesn't work, and all I do is give him a look, and his demeanor changes, I get I'm sorry, but the devil made me do it. I don't make it a battle, because in the end the cat food is harmless, but getting on my table is not and I do not, for me and my dog, consider this a huge thing, just a personal thing.

And still on topic, help me out here. Someone mentioned ( I forget who) that making their dog get a nail trim or some such,  was a frightening experience for their dog, and another member said that was awful that they allowed that. Well, that brings me to my problem. Giving medication. Kord hates it, but I'm sorry he has to take pills daily, and will probably at this stage, have to for a good long time, if not the rest of his life. I am sorry that it has to be, but I am going to my part and make him take the dang things. Yes, MAKE HIM. I make it as painless as possible, no harsh words or actions, I try to make it a happy time, but he is not buying it. One thing I can say is this dog is all about routine, don't mess with it and your day goes smooth, screw it up and he gets upset with it faster. There is no other way to describe it, it is confrontational, and it is not by choice. So, how would you handle it? In a positive, non confrontational way? Here are some facts. He knows which cabinet they are in, he knows the sound of the dish I have them in, I do it twice a day. I can give them with no problems now, my husband struggles. He is happy and carefree right after wards. The am pills are with food, the pm are not.

denise m

I wasn't the perfect dog owner and he wasn't the perfect dog.  

Thank goodness, I'm not alone.

Truley

In terms of food, instinct and temptations need to be accounted in actions. I do not hold with dogs getting up on counters or into garbage cans for any reason, but I do understand that sometimes temptation can overtake training, ALL training. The best way to stop temptation is to not leave food and garbage cans out for them to get into. Period. Now,  I can and do leave food out here because Kord has never even attempted to grab anything, in fact I currently have 2 lbs of meat destined to be turned into meatloaf thawing on the counter. He has shown no interest what so ever. Wow, great and fantastic....except under that trained, perfect dog exterior , lies a wanton, stealing, treacherous canned cat food thief.(laugh here folk

There are all kinds of ways to train dogs to do things. Somehow i had a lab that i could leave the groceries (including the meat) with and he would not touch them. He would dribble but not touch them for hours... I found out that he generalised by accident . i rewarded the hell out of him, and he never in his whole life touched the groceries. I kept the rewards up.

 Now the cat food.. he would go several weeks without touching the cat food on the floor. I would premack it once in a while. Once in a while he would go for bust eat it clatter the plates and take himself off to the toilet for a time out having woken me up. Now i defy any kind of trainer to not find that just a bit funny and a it cute. Confrontation is just out of the question...

tenna

As punishment does not cause a behavior to become extinct, the behavior will eventually pop back up unless an incompatible behavior is trained in the interim.

Wrong, my dog ignores wild rabbits completely after i used leash re directions to avoid going after them. He just keeps walking and i dont see fear on his eyes either thinking that another leash re direction might come

tenna

Also, aversives and punishment cause a dog to associate you with bad things. I don't want my dog to think I produce Bad Things for Dogs. Why would I want him to be afraid of me?

Wrong again, my dog tries to initiate play most of the times even when i have used corrections before, he still comes to me and wags his tail every time i come home

tenna

Sure, aversives can produce results. They can suppress behaviors you don't like (and ones you do!)

Wrong once again, even when my dog ignores wild rabbits, he is very eager to chase his stuffed duck attached to his flirt pole

Dogs are smarter than you think, they know who, when, where they can do things with an specific person/item and when they cant

The chase of a wild rabbit is 10,000 times better for mi dog that any dead piece of meat that i could offer instead. He has a LIVE piece of meat inviting him to be chased. The reward of the hunt is 10,000 times better than a new york steak on a silver platter

Timed leash re directions did the trick for me and might saved my dog's life from being a road kill while chasing one of those wild rabbits