E-collar discussion

  Just comparing the different "types" of GSDs shows why SchH is an important thing for breeders wishing to preserve true GSD working temperament to participate in. SchH was created by GSD breed founder, to be used as a tool to evaluate GSDs for breeding stock. The reason was because there aren't enough dogs trained in real life work to support a healthy breeding population. In order to get dogs that are capable of the real life work, all breeding dogs need to be evaluated for working temperament in all asepcts - drive, trainability, nerves, work ethic, stamina, etc. SchH was created to test for all the things that the breed founder felt were important in a good GSD. Just because some people are interested in it as a sport, doesn't mean that there aren't many people out there still using it for it's original purpose.

That is only one example of why you can not always start with a lighter tool and work your way up if it does not work.

Dogs don't get much more predatory than mine, and I have never used a choke, prong, e-collar, or leash correction on her.  Yet, she comes directly back to me when asked, regardless of what she is chasing.  I'm not a wonder trainer, I just started when our relationship began, using ever increasing distraction levels, proofing at each level, and setting the scenarios up so that I could control them initially.  She simply learned that "Leave it! Come!" was not optional.   The real trick is to not allow the dog to be on its own in situations that you can't control during the training process.  I find that people get into a lot of trouble because they train in one milieu and yet leave the dog to its own devices in other situations before the dog is proofed in the desired behavior.  If intermittent reinforcement causes behavior to continue, then we need to insure that the dog is not being intermittently reinforced for the wrong behavior during the learning process. 

As for mirandobe's comment about histrionics, I think that's an unfair term for a simple difference of opinion.  Those of us who do not believe in shocking dogs (or children, for that matter, as one poster alluded to) are not hysterical - we simply believe that a dog can be trained without their use, and in fact, many are, and to a high level of obedience, drive, and performance.  

spiritdogs

She simply learned that "Leave it! Come!" was not optional.

I'm pretty sure that you know the behavior characteristics of a Mal, therefore i could not afford to check if "Leave it" would work or not. I'm pretty skilled at timing "leash redirections" so that was the tool i decided to use. I reduced the exposure time by half maybe doing that, those were extra days where my dog was not at risk of being run over by a car. Maybe an e collar could be able to reduce that exposure time even more. I am not going to risk my dog's life choosing a tool that i think is not the right tool for me and my dog just because it's "lighter".

The point is again, that regardless why you think one tool was better or not, is just an example of why people dont start with a "lighter" tool.

Breed characteristics, tools experience, timing, situation characteristics and personal opinion of each tool are just some of the facts that make people choose what they want to choose.

spiritdogs

Dogs don't get much more predatory than mine

I can recall many times when you have told me to use food to distract B from what he wants and is focused on - I have mentioned each time that it doesn't work.  I have come to an understanding that you don't understand him and dogs like him.

I think that it may be difficult for some people that own and focus on certain breeds to understand that not all dogs are those breeds and not all dogs will learn the same way. I have wanted to add a rescue GSP to my family for over a year and in doing my research and surfing through GSP rescue I have found that every rescue is OK with an e-fence.  In fact they recommend them.  Why? It would seem that GSP's see fences as just some fun to leap but by and large respect e-fences.  They also, more often than not, list that the dog is e-collar trained.  Having been a regular surfer of rescue sites for various other breeds - weims, labs, danes and boxers in particular, and NONE of the rescues are OK with an e-fence.  What that tells me is that GSP's ARE different and respond best to a different tool than the others.

You admit that 

spiritdogs

we simply believe that a dog can be trained without their use, and in fact, many are, and to a high level of obedience, drive, and performance.  

e-collars are not a tool for all trainers and not the best choice for many dogs but for some it is an excellent tool that when used properly is not the torture device those of you THAT HAVEN'T USED THEM seem to think they are.

spiritdogs

As for mirandobe's comment about histrionics, I think that's an unfair term for a simple difference of opinion. 

Don't take it personally, because had it been a reference to you, I would have said "the time I put the collar on myself in front of Anne."  The histrionics were not yours - particularly take note that "histrionics" by definition is a physical display, and since I've only seen pictures of you and never met you in real life, I could not be describing you in my account of personal experiences.

espencer

Breed characteristics, tools experience, timing, situation characteristics and personal opinion of each tool are just some of the facts that make people choose what they want to choose.

kpwlee

Also your aussies are handler focused - surely you worked with dogs that aren't concerned about what the 'human' wants.  Put extreme prey drive in a super powerful dog that isn't handler focused and training them without 'tools' is another story. 

Just wanted to chime in to clarify that not all Aussies are handler focused and naturally biddable. Luna is extremely motion sensitive, smart and very independent. I am the only person she will work for and that's been earned with  time, sweat and tears.

To the original topic, I am sure some people are able to use the e-collar as a marker on certain dogs (since it's the dog who determines what is rewarding or aversive) and many of us have conditioned our dogs to like things like the Dremel with conditioning, I don't see why the same thing wouldn't apply to a vibrating e-collar as a marker.

My main concern about using an e-collar for correction would be the same concern I have with any other type of corrections -- how do you know what the dog is paring it with?

miranadobe

irst, I realize in your part of Australia (Victoria, right?), that ecollar use is restricted, and in most states throughout Australia they're either illegal or restricted, so perhaps this is primarily theory without application?  I don't want to assume, though - have you used an ecollar (NOT a bark collar, NOT an electronic fence?) and if so, what brands/models? 

Using quite a few manufacturer's data, (actually trying to get it is a good warning sign. It is quite hard to get..) and having a pretty good knowledge of that data and how to interrpret that data, was enough for me to form an opinion. An example is that  I don't need to smoke to realise that nicotine is bad for me, in fact the act of smoking wouldn't give me that knowledge.

At the same time, i don't wish to see e collars completely banned. I know of situations where they can help dog owners and dogs and are a very useful tool.

For my own dogs, no way. I can  meet my training objectives much more efficently  without them. In fact i am not sure at all about using large doses of corrections or R- in training whether it be by slip collar or prong or e collar. They all startle/hurt etc.

miranadobe

But what is the point of asking my personal experience with it on my neck?  The implied message seems to be that I would blow my own head off if I felt it there, rather than my hand??

 I am saying that for sure, the terminals do give trouble. It is not uncommon for sores a bit like bed sores (no people it isn't "charring or anything that dramatic..). Of course you will tell me that "if it is used properly...". I just can't see how two quite sharp points can be pressed into dog's skin firmly enough for long enough not to give trouble on some dogs or humans.

I would never suggest that you would blow your head off.  It is unscientific and ridiculous to say so.

Basically, yet again it is common human behaviour that causes the problems. It is hard to suggest that humans on the whole are Altruistic, because most are not and the studies do show this. 

miranadobe

But it has been repeated several times that we're talking about proper use of the tool and what value it could have in the OPs training program. 

We actually don't know that much about how dogs percieve pain and only have indirect  evidence. This is a key issue.You have bought it up yourself. We don't know wheter it is more or less than a human. There are strong evolutionary reasons why it might be at both limits. My older poodle seems to experience more pain walking over prickly surfaces than i do, and is quite fussy about surfaces in agility. If i should stand on her foot once in training, you will hear the screams in the next neighbourhood. My younger boy couldn't care less about much at all provided that there is a good drivey game at the end of it.

How much percieved pain/stim/shock/startling you apply is highly variable during a training session even if you set the working level for that dog at the start of a training session as i already have stated. I sometimes think that the dial is a way of assauging some human consciences :)) or comparing how "tough" a dog is.

Sometimes here we tell a joke that goes " I am so tough that my girlfriend irons my shirt.. while i am still wearing it" . The dog owner equivalent is my dog is so tough that he/she wouldn't even stop when the dial was right at the end.  I have to tell you that my old Lab in drive would have off course worked through any known e collar and would have fought off five angry Mals he was so tough :)))

Talking realistacally about this issue and other reservations that we may have about a particular tool can lead to a decision. In Shutzhund with some dogs with the temperarments that may exist it may be a useful tool if it is wisely and correctly used. It can also be a real nightmare as the application of adversives can increase rather than reduce some types of aggression.

poodleOwned

miranadobe

irst, I realize in your part of Australia (Victoria, right?), that ecollar use is restricted, and in most states throughout Australia they're either illegal or restricted, so perhaps this is primarily theory without application?  I don't want to assume, though - have you used an ecollar (NOT a bark collar, NOT an electronic fence?) and if so, what brands/models? 

 

Using quite a few manufacturer's data, (actually trying to get it is a good warning sign. It is quite hard to get..) and having a pretty good knowledge of that data and how to interrpret that data, was enough for me to form an opinion.

Based on the above, how can you state the below?:

poodleOwned

 I am saying that for sure, the terminals do give trouble. ... Of course you will tell me that "if it is used properly..." .I just can't see how two quite sharp points can be pressed into dog's skin firmly enough for long enough not to give trouble on some dogs or humans.

Because, really, truly, the points are NOT sharp.  If your toothbrush is sharp to you, then, maybe the contact points would seem sharp to you.  I know some Navy Seals who could stab your eye out with your toothbrush, or use it to kill you... but clearly that's not the intended use, or proper use for the general public... So, yes, sometimes it's applicable to reiterate "if it is used properly".

Pit_Pointer_Aussie

kpwlee

Also your aussies are handler focused - surely you worked with dogs that aren't concerned about what the 'human' wants.  Put extreme prey drive in a super powerful dog that isn't handler focused and training them without 'tools' is another story. 

 

Just wanted to chime in to clarify that not all Aussies are handler focused and naturally biddable. Luna is extremely motion sensitive, smart and very independent. I am the only person she will work for and that's been earned with  time, sweat and tears.

To the original topic, I am sure some people are able to use the e-collar as a marker on certain dogs (since it's the dog who determines what is rewarding or aversive) and many of us have conditioned our dogs to like things like the Dremel with conditioning, I don't see why the same thing wouldn't apply to a vibrating e-collar as a marker.

My main concern about using an e-collar for correction would be the same concern I have with any other type of corrections -- how do you know what the dog is paring it with?

(Tongue in cheek here) True, you don't know what a dog will pair a correction with sometimes, but since people here think the e-collar is a marker and not a correction, well, who cares, right????

Anyway, thanks for making a valid point about not painting all Aussies with the same brush.  Some Aussies are also terrifically handler focused *until* the prey drive kicks in.  Mine is handler focused and well trained to leave the chase and return to me, but that would never have happened without systematic training.  My current dogs are also *not* the only experience I've had with either high drive powerful dogs, or with these behaviors.  I'm almost sixty, and have owned and trained dogs all my life.   I have also been in close company with people who do use e-collars (very successfully, too, if obedience is the only criteria), and have seen some pretty heartbreaking fallout from their use as well.  I made the choice not to use e-collars even when I had difficult dogs to train.  But, isn't that always what the argument boils down to?  The proponents of e-collars always say the opponents of e-collars don't know anything about those large high drive dogs...

miranadobe

Because, really, truly, the points are NOT sharp.

Nope..they aren't. Not at all. agreed. Also agreeing on much of what's been said here esp in regards to breed specific trainers and training methods in regards to handler focus, and biddability.

eta: I'd also add that working with a breed, is not the same as living with one...at all. Raise one from puppy to death and then tell me you have experience living with them and know them. The breeds we as people, choose to live with or as one's "match" actually tells me a lot about what they want out their dog and, speaking of a trainer, what they expect out of mine and how wrong I can expect them to be on certain things LOL.

spiritdogs

(Tongue in cheek here) True, you don't know what a dog will pair a correction with sometimes, but since people here think the e-collar is a marker and not a correction, well, who cares, right???? 

Anne I respect your experience as a trainer and behaviorist, but seriously, posts like these (even with the "disclaimer";) are what start knocking people down a few notches on my credibility scale.  Yeah I get the "tongue in cheek" part but why would you even post it at all if you didn't really think that?  You really think I'm that stupid?  That I would start zapping my dog on level 5 and call it a marker?  I guess I need you to clarify what is the difference between a cheap, poorly made "vibration collar" and an expensive, very well made e-collar on vibrate....

Anyway, as for the prongs on an e-collar....

I just can't see how two quite sharp points can be pressed into dog's skin firmly enough for long enough not to give trouble on some dogs or humans.

How long do you train your dogs?!?!  At SchH club if my dog is on the field for obedience for 15 minutes straight that's a long session.  At home I do obedience 4-5 times a week, maybe 10 minutes tops.  Even if you had a more mature dog preparing for trial and ran him through the entire obedience routine (which rarely happens, mostly you are doing segments you are working on or learning), it's probably 6-7 minutes (example here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RkO_VZPHLDk ).  With the level of drive and focus required, we just can ask for hour-long classes of obedience from these dogs (thought most of them can work really "flat" and look great in other obedience venues).

spiritdogs

I made the choice not to use e-collars even when I had difficult dogs to train.

See it's statements like these that just perpetuate all the misinformation about e-collars.  

If anyone would actually read and respond to my original post, I was NOT referring to "difficult" or even high drive dogs. 

 I'm no longer sure what this topic is about. Is it about E-collars as a positive marker or is it about E-collars in their more traditional use as an aversive? I thought we were just discussing E-collars as a positive marker, and I have said what I think about the potential usefulness of that and how touch may be useful in training as a marker.

I would never use one as a punishment because, as espencer suggested, I am afraid of damaging my dog's psyche. I started another thread about that. 

Clearly, I am confused as well. I thought it was about using an e-collar on vibrate for a marker and/or on low stim for a correction.

If we're just talking about its use as a marker, then I don't see why a vibration can't be loaded the same way a clicker or other marker can.

Thus far I've stayed out of the last bit, however since Liesje responded I'll take that as an okay to respond to the current topic (it's her thread after all!!)......I have shared my life with a diverse range of breeds....Shelties, Labs, Papillons, Cairn Terriers, Schnauzers.....all quite different in their needs and dispositions. I've also "worked with" many others (including my recentlly fostered Staffy mix), so I have a bit of an understanding of how dogs differ! And within a breed I have extensive experience with Labs and Schnauzers specifically, two breeds of dogs that are, in all honesty, at near opposites of the same spectrum. Labs are goofy, biddable, owner-pleasing animals by nature, Schnauzers are independent, sometimes full of 'tude, self-thinkers that are highly intelligent and follow their prey drive instead of bring it back to you. *G* However the biggest thing I have noticed is the vast difference even within the breeds. Not all Labs will be biddable or easy, and not all Schnauzers have a crazy high prey drive. And, I have seen my share of Aussies that were by far not "easy" or always handler focused. Aussies I find are "focused".....what that focus is on though may change dramatically through a dog's life. *G*

Now, I will be the first to admit that my schnauzers are "small". They simply don't have the brute force to do much - on their own. I can handle them more than easily. However, when you pair up three schnauzers on one walk, with one human, the odds begin to match any single larger dog. Three small dogs, all exerting the same force in the same direction, ends up being more than the individual weights of all three. And as soon as you get a multiple of anything, difficulty increases dramatically. So when a prey item crosses the path on a walk, or one dog gets upset which in turn causes the other two to go on high alert, you are now dealing with one, large, strong, three-headed individual for a period of time. And in terms of speed, well, my Mini's easliy catch any larger breed dog, whether it be Aussie, Pitty, Kelpie, etc (I say this because they have!! The only breeds I would say they cannot catch are sighthounds), so once gone I have no chance of catching them.

But.....the dogs are not always a big three-headed monster anymore, and that came through training. We can walk through most situations without too much fuss, although sometimes there are things that crop up to try to bring it out.

And it's not just about size when it comes to sensitivity.....Gaci has snapped plain snap collars, she has run through bush and come back with burdocks in her entire body, matted so closely clippers could not even clip them out, she has ripped out toenails in her feet in the hunt, when it comes to environmental sensitivity I really don't think something like an efence would even come into play with her, she'd bolt right through it to catch what she wanted. Shimmer cut her pad, badly, at the beach one day, but did not show any signs of being in discomfort and continued to run....I didn't even notice it until the next day. On the other hand a stern voice sends Shimmer into oblivious upset, and with Gaci getting stern often just gets her more hot n' bothered (she's a funny gal!), so sensitivity is really quite situation-specific, and I have a very, very good experience with predatory drives, as I live with it each and every day, every time the dogs go out to pee.

 I say all this because I just wanted to emphasize that it can be done....yes it takes more time than collar corrections (sometimes), and I'll even say I put in the odd "Cut it out" to them in a stern voice (although I try not to with Shimmer), but I'm just trying to portray that just because we don't own "Bugsy" or "Chuck" doesn't mean we either haven't at one time had one of those, or that we don't work with dogs who may borderline those types of dogs (although Bugsy is one of a kind!!!! ). And I'm not even saying someone "should" do it that way, or that you shouldn't use the collar of choice you want to use - I try not to judge, I really do, but it's more just an acknowledgement that some of us have  been there too, and we have dealt with it, and worked through it, in our way and it can be just as successful!