Control unleashed class #2

((hugs)) Abbie is very lucky to have such a dedicated, aware handler!  We all have classes where we get incredibly frustrated, even when not working a reactive dog, so know that you aren't alone!

Jewlieee

She worries so much about her surroundings that her brain just doesn't function and she boils over.

Usually i'm on favor of flooding but i think this time you should take it slow. This could be considered  "indirect" flooding and obviously you are in no position to deal with what it comes with.

I'm pretty sure the class represents a great time for you and you feel that she would love it as much as you do but it seems that as of right now the class for her represents also stress and she might not be enjoying it as much.

If i was you i would put the class on hold for a little bit while i work specifically on the issue. I think that exposing her to the triggers they way you are doing it now are setting her for failure.

If you want to work on it while you have to worry about the excersises the class needs you might be doing 2 things half way and none of them correctly.

Just my opinion, thats what i would do and you are free of doing whatever you think you need

Julie, you may not think you made progress but don't compare Abbie's progress to the other dogs.  I know you know that but it helps to be reminded sometimes. The CU book talks about some dogs who never get to any of the other techniques.  They spend the whole class, every week, getting massaged and learning to relax in the environment.  You did make progress if she relaxed enough to fall asleep.  Baby steps. 

JackieG

Julie, you may not think you made progress but don't compare Abbie's progress to the other dogs.  I know you know that but it helps to be reminded sometimes. The CU book talks about some dogs who never get to any of the other techniques.  They spend the whole class, every week, getting massaged and learning to relax in the environment.  You did make progress if she relaxed enough to fall asleep.  Baby steps. 

I agree with Jackie.  I sometimes refer to an old riding instructor's advice - "work with horse you've got" - so you can think of it as "work with the dog you've got."  She needs to make progress at her own pace, and you are doing a fabulous job, despite the fact that she may progress at a slower rate than the other dogs.  

I was just practicing look at that with her, keeping the object to the ground (non threatening) and using a super high rate of reinforcement. One thing came to light: I think she was initially trying the watch me. And when that didn't work, got stressed. I have worked so hard on watch me with her in the phase of stressors and I think she just shut down. One thing the instructor said was that abbie is a dog who is afraid to be wrong. By the end of our session today, she would initially look away from the object then catch herself and look at it for the c/t. So that is some progress.

 From watching the DVD's that massage/relaxing exercise is super important.

That you were able to de-escalate her to the point of crashing is a real good thing!

Keep it up! It'll come together!

Jewlieee

First abbie barked and lunged all the way to our box. Then while I was trying to do mat work, she could hear the dog on the other side of the barrier so she started reacting to that. They had to put up TWO gates on each side so that she would settle down and stop worrying.

 

I think it is important to hang in there and work carefully with your dog. The second dog in my signature broke down with noise phobias so badly at one point that  i wouldn't consider putting her within 30 yards of a group of dogs for a while. In two weeks time we are going away to a strange town and i fully expect her to aquit herself well in some UD trials. She will seem completely unflappable in out of sight group stays, only i know what a miracle it is that she is there at all. I got her back with really slow careful desensitisation over a long period of time.

I must say that flooding methods or even unintentional flooding methods don't st that well with me, but i don't have the theoretical or practical experience in this area to critque them properly. What i do know is that if corrections are pulled out you are in the wrong place. :) I am trying to read some more of the methods of Brenda Aloff, Trish King and re-read the control unleshed book.

Maura

Start with asking her to do something that is a no brainer for her.  A sit for instance,

Sits are a good idea but even they can be too much. I tried for focus first. Both my dogs lose their sits if they get very hyper from playor get stressed but don't lose their drops. My lab would bore holes through the floor to do a sit.

You can have a look at a dog that lost it and got it back together again here  http://s587.photobucket.com/albums/ss311/deniscody100/LuciLuci%20UD%20training/

Good Luck!

Jewlieee

She would not calm down enough for us to do any of the exercises though. I tried a new technique for "look at that" since the other way wasn't working. Basically I took a stuffed animal, put it behind my back then pulled it out quickly and when abbie looked at it I clicked treated and put the stuffie back behind my back. Well this stressed abbie out so much that she turned away from me, sat down, ears flat and her head pointed up to the wall/ ceiling. It was the most extreme avoidance body language that I had ever seen out of her! That I had caused that stress really made me wonder if I'm the one that is causing her worried reactive behavior in the first place.

The instructor came over to work with us and she did a few look at that's, but abbie would catch on which hand was holding the stuffie and would avoid looking that way. So we had to switch hands every 2 times to fake her out.

I may be way off base here, but I have to wonder if her reaction to this exercise could be partly due to a miscalculated choice of reinforcement and some resulting confusion for the dog.  Could it be that she really, really wanted that toy?  My thought process is this: Dog looks at toy, hears click so knows something good is coming, desired object is removed (negative punishment), dog thinks "what the heck?"  (rinse and repeat...)  Remember, it's only a reward if the dog sees it as one in that given moment... maybe, just maybe, that treat was not as rewarding to her as the toy. I know with my boy, play is often more enticing to him than turkey dog bits.. but that can vary from day to day, location to location, and sometimes moment to moment.

From everything you wrote, it seems that there is more going on as well (stress from the environment)... but this may be something to try out in a less stressful situation to see if it makes any difference. Good luck with your pup... and keep up the good work!  She'll get there.

Julie and Jersey