Over Treating When Clicker Training?

BlackLabbie

mudpuppy

and I feel like he's working for those treats, not for me.

he is. It's a complete myth that dogs "work to please" the owner.

I'm sorry I wasn't clear. I don't mean I want him soley "working to please" me, but I eventually would like him to complete a command (example, "watch me";) just because I asked it of him (example, another dog is passing us) without c&t (but that will take more time and practice). But, for example, if we walk and he does an auto sit I can see him watching my hand (the one with treats in it) looking for his reward, he doesn't look at me at all (besides my hand). He is very food motivated. Also, I'm not sure the clicker (the actual noise) is even making a difference.

If you have clicked while he was looking at your hand, then you can bet your granny the click is making a difference.  If you would rather he looked at YOU then wait for eye contact before clicking and deliver the treat afterwards.  Follow immediately with "lets go" (or whatever).  After a few reps, phase out the CT, but keep the "life reward" (ie, walk continuing).

Hope that helps  

Today we did some training with great success...

Basically I had my friend (the one with the pom/maltese) walk back and forth across the street from me and Apollo and I did the "watch me" exercise. The first couple times it was tough, we had to start with my friend pretty far away from us for him to remain calm. But eventually we worked up to us being right across the street and Apollo ignoring her dog. Which is really good because this is one of the dogs that, idk why, really gets him going. I was really grateful for her helping us out because he was pretty bad with her dog before (lunging/barking at it). After training we actually went for a short walk, Apollo on my left side, her dog on her right side, and the 4 of us walked for a bit without any problems.

I wish that was all it took to keep him from reacting on the leash from now on! But I know we need much more practice.

 That's great progress!  It's great you have a friend that's willing to work with you like that!  And walking together like that is supposed to be really great because it gets them used to being around the other dog without it being a face to face confrontation thing.  Good work!

Thank you!

I was pretty nervous myself because my friend never really has control over her dog. But I had to just take a deep breathe and do it. My friends dog is usually pulling all over the place at the end of a long flexi leash, but I actually am glad she was because thats how alot of dogs that we see are.

I don't mean I want him soley "working to please" me, but I eventually would like him to complete a command (example, "watch me";) just because I asked it of him (example, another dog is passing us) without c&t (but that will take more time and practice).

You really only need the clicker at the very beginning of training- the click serves to communicate to the dog what you want the dog to do. Once the dog understands what "watch me" means, which may take only one or two short sessions, you don't need the clicker anymore. But, just because the dog understands what you want doesn't mean the dog is necessarily motivated to do it. Which is where the treats/praise/toys/life rewards come in. Never at any point will any dog ever obey a command "just because you asked him". He obeys because he might get something good for himself if he does. Some dogs enjoy the activity they are being asked to do- agility, fetching, herding, etc.- and these dogs don't need additional motivators beyond being allowed to do the activity. But there are few dogs who think things like ignoring other dogs or heel position is fun so you need to build up a strong history of linking fun/good stuff in the dog's mind to engaging in this sort of activity, so you won't always have to offer something concrete for obedience.

mudpuppy

He obeys because he might get something good for himself if he does. Some dogs enjoy the activity they are being asked to do- agility, fetching, herding, etc.- and these dogs don't need additional motivators beyond being allowed to do the activity. But there are few dogs who think things like ignoring other dogs or heel position is fun so you need to build up a strong history of linking fun/good stuff in the dog's mind to engaging in this sort of activity, so you won't always have to offer something concrete for obedience.

Does the activity not become more reinforcing in and of itself, due to that history of positive association?
 

It won't always be that heavy. You will fade out to intermittent treats and no clicker. But don't be afraid to use the clicker and treats. Dogs will work for food. If the dogs were wild or feral, they would be working for food, by necessity. Some just have it in them. My dog gets plenty of food. And still hunts and eats mice.

If your dog gets full on treats while training, no biggie, just scale back the meal appropriately. Unless you have a dog like mine who can eat his meal and an hour or less later, he's ready for treats and will do whatever you want, sometimes offering a succession of learned behaviors.

Yeah, he's in it for himself. That's a good thing.

One day, a dog that bothers Apollo is going to walk by, or lunge at him. On that day, you'll know that the ridiculous treats have paid off. He'll FLIP his head around so fast his body moves, and bore a hole in your head. You may be so shocked that you can't reward him for a full minute (I was!!! Emma has gotten incredibly good at this, and it still shocks me), but you'll reward the holy heck out of him, and he'll *get it*.

All the treats early on really do pay off. I know it seems silly, right now, but it's sort of... something you've gotta do, as far as I can tell. That's the only way my not-caring-about-people-food-loving-reactive-Emma learned to watch me in the face of HUGE distractions. A couple of weeks ago, an Airedale lunged at her, in class (his body was actually OVER hers) and she watched me the entire time. It's become a default behavior, for her. Feeling nervous or afraid or threatened? Watch mom!

If the treats are too many, and you're spoiling his dinner (or making him fat!), mix part of his kibble in with the treats. You don't have to use high value treats every time. It works better, if you don't. 

 Having had this experience with Sioux, I can attest to how valuable it is.  Once, at an obedience club, we were on the sidelines while some guy was doing a run through.  His dog made an error, which unleashed a torrent of screaming from this dude.  Sioux was terrified, and might have been scarred for life had I not already done this training.  Instead of continuing to feel terror, she found herself answering my "Look" cue, and getting fed for about five minutes until the guy's tirade was over.  We never went back there - but my dog could have, because she had enough faith in me to make everything ok so long as she kept her gaze on my face.  It's a wonderful thing.  Sequoyah is so good at it, that people actually notice that she is always fixated on my face to see what's coming next:-))  Part of that is genetic, but part of it is that she was taught early that eye contact with me was rewarding and not threatening.