What to do when you don't trust your dog anymore...

kennys_mom

 We are going to the vet tomorrow to get some shots and I specifically made the appointment with the vet who is a behavior specialist.  

Kudos to you for trying to seek help but what have you currently done to help the situation? Its not going to be a quick fix and most dog behaviorial problems are a direct result to their environment and the way they were raised.

Just keep in mind the vet isnt gonna give you some magic word to solve the issue. There are tons of topics here abour SA already that you could look over and start trying at home.

She said that Kenny was obviously gave our niece a warning with his snarl b/c she was in his space and he didn't like that. She said a good idea would be to take Kenny to a park and have children give him treats so that he associates children with treats. We will definitely try that.

Kenny was VERY nervous this morning at the vet. He growled at a tech when she bent down to greet him in the waiting room. The tech in the examination room got his collar off to get his new rabies tag on and put it back on without a problem. When she was moving towards him to try to get him up on the examination table, he started growling so the vet gave me a muzzle to put on him and everything else went okay.

 
When we went to Petsmart afterward to find some toys to help Abe and his anxiety, and they both had a ball. Kenny was letting the workers pet and love on him. (Of course they were all adults and knew how to approach him properly.) There weren't any kids around.
 

kennys_mom

She said a good idea would be to take Kenny to a park and have children give him treats so that he associates children with treats. We will definitely try that.

I hope to many yellin, screaming children isnt too much for him. Just remember that it is your job to keep Kenny safe even if that includes safe from kids who he may percieve as a threat. When the kids come up to greet Kenny you could say something like "This is Kenny, he really loves to be pet on his chest". Try to keep the kids from looming over him, reaching behind his head or latching onto him, they could do more harm then good.  Maybe before you go to a kids park you could go to a regular park, sit down and relax on a blankie so he can take in lots of sights, sounds and regular strangers. He may not ever be the kind of dog who will tolerate kids prying fingers and loud screams, I think he still needs his own safe space when he is at home when you have kids come over but I'm glad your family is on the road to a safe and happy time!

mudpuppy

it is just hard to understand kenny b/c i grew up with 3 cocker spaniels and NOT ONE of them ever reacted poorly with another child.

kenny's behavior is actually "normal" for the breed- they aren't well-known for tolerating young children.

....I don't think so . I had a Cocker Spaniel, and grew up with Springer Spaniels- all who were excellent with children of all ages- I think I know this breed fairly well. IMO, that statement is like saying a it's "normal" for a pittie to be dog aggressive (which I don't believe, either).

I think Kenny just needs to be around calm and understanding children for now, since he hasn't been really socialized to them before, and have a place to retreat to if he feels he's needs a break.

BlackLabbie

I had a Cocker Spaniel, and grew up with Springer Spaniels- all who were excellent with children of all ages- I think I know this breed fairly well. IMO, that statement is like saying a it's "normal" for a pittie to be dog aggressive (which I don't believe, either).

I think Kenny just needs to be around calm and understanding children for now, since he hasn't been really socialized to them before, and have a place to retreat to if he feels he's needs a break.

Ok maybe not normal but maybe more prone to certain types of charachteristics. Pitties are more prone to be DA if not managed properly but I appreciate what your saying. Also keep in mind the springers have completely different temperments then american cockers. Its pretty common for cockers to be anxious around loud, exciting situations. Anyhoo thats irrelevant in this case because her dog is unstable around children.....maybe not because of a predisposed disposition but becasue of his upbrining and lack of socialization. I'm 100% in agreement with you though, Kenny needs his space.

kennys_mom

Kenny was VERY nervous this morning at the vet. He growled at a tech when she bent down to greet him in the waiting room

Sigh. You'd think a vet tech would know better. 

Discourage people, especially strangers and kids, NOT to bend over him.  Approach sideways on, turn away and let HIM approach THEM for a fuss.  Adults should crouch.  If he doesn't WANT a fuss, that's fine too, he doesn't HAVE to have one. If he does seem to want one, petting his chest area is best - its less intimidating than touching the head and neck.

I think it would be better to have some kids visit your house and drop treats without actually looking at him.  He is more likely to be confident on his own turf and the kids a re more likely to listen to your instructions.  Also, he can still be provided with the option of FLIGHT (impossible at the park where he must be on lead).

Just my thoughts.  Good luck Kenny, chin up mate! 

Sigh. You'd think a vet tech would know better. 

I probably should have told her not to approach him b/c his tail was tucked and he was shaking a bit.  

Discourage people, especially strangers and kids, NOT to bend over him.  Approach sideways on, turn away and let HIM approach THEM for a fuss.  Adults should crouch.  If he doesn't WANT a fuss, that's fine too, he doesn't HAVE to have one. If he does seem to want one, petting his chest area is best - its less intimidating than touching the head and neck.

Oh I always recommend that strangers pet him on his chest as opposed to his head!

I think it would be better to have some kids visit your house and drop treats without actually looking at him.  He is more likely to be confident on his own turf and the kids a re more likely to listen to your instructions.  Also, he can still be provided with the option of FLIGHT (impossible at the park where he must be on lead).

Do you think that would be helpful? I can't honestly think of any parks around here where there are lots of kids.

oh and FYI, about cocker spaniels behavior to previous posters. they are among to top 5 breeds of dog bites according to my vet
 

top five? really? wow! moca must be an oddball... i dont even think she is mentally capable of laying teeth on a human... maybe she's just weird

i also think taking her to a park with many kids is probably a bad idea... you wanna desesitize her sloooowly. if you overdo it, you'll probably do more harm than good!

kennys_mom

Sigh. You'd think a vet tech would know better. 

I probably should have told her not to approach him b/c his tail was tucked and he was shaking a bit.  

I'm just surprised that the vet tech didn't also spot this and adjust her approach to be honest.... I mean, it's their job you know?  You think they would know! 

kennys_mom

I think it would be better to have some kids visit your house and drop treats without actually looking at him.  He is more likely to be confident on his own turf and the kids a re more likely to listen to your instructions.  Also, he can still be provided with the option of FLIGHT (impossible at the park where he must be on lead).

Do you think that would be helpful? I can't honestly think of any parks around here where there are lots of kids.

It would have to be slightly older children that can be trusted to do as instructed (ie, ignore Kenny and just drop the treats - and they have to be good ones, really tasty!)  Alternatively someone could just sit with kenny and handfeed him tiny little treats constantly while the kids are there for a very short visit.  Just something to change his repsonse to them, so instead of thinking "oh no! *groan!* those horrible little loud scary people again! " he starts thinking, "ooo wow, I wonder if they got any goodies?? "  It wouldn't be a long term measure.... just something to kick start the process so you can teach him that a) small people really ARE tolerable after all and B) you will always look out for him when they are around. 

I always anticipate when William is doing something I think the dogs may be uncomfortable with and I intervene.  I don't wait for a growl.  I can clearly SEE most of the time when they look unhappy or put upon.  It's my job to protect them.  By protecting them I am protecting William too.... and I am teaching him that "doggies don't like that sort of thing".  Some kids grow up with extremely tolerant dogs and have no idea that their actions would earn them a bite from any other dog.... that's not healthy IMO and it will get them bitten. 

kennys_mom

oh and FYI, about cocker spaniels behavior to previous posters. they are among to top 5 breeds of dog bites according to my vet

That doesnt surprise me unfortunately   It's what happens when a breed gets popular and too many people think "breeding" is a good idea. 

kennys_mom

She said that Kenny was obviously gave our niece a warning with his snarl b/c she was in his space and he didn't like that. She said a good idea would be to take Kenny to a park and have children give him treats so that he associates children with treats. We will definitely try that.

I would suggest that you approach this very very slowly.  I was given the same advice for Woobie.     Didn't quite work out.  I've had him a year and a half and he still wouldn't be able to tolerate a park full of kids with treats and it would probably push him towards aggression if I tried to subject him to something like that.  I have, however, used parks full of kids in our desensitization training.  After a year and a half, he's at the point where he can be within about 15 ft. of the playground.  He can also deal with very quiet, calm, respectful children approaching him with no eye contact and not trying to pet him on top of his head.  Here's my resource list, it has really helped.

Fearfulness - Ian Dunbar

Cautious Canine - Patricia McConnell

Calming Signals -  Turid Rugaas

Shy K9s Group on Yahoo

The Fearful Dog

 Fearful Dogs

 And the Click To Calm book I linked previously.  I can't stress enough not to push him or rush it.  If you see ANY SIGN whatsoever of nervousness or hesitancy, you have to back up and get your dog out of there.  One negative encounter can erase 100 good ones.  I would NOT have children treat him initially, I would do the treating when you are around children.  He can still make the positive association without putting any child at risk of a bite.

Good luck! 

BCMixs

I would NOT have children treat him initially, I would do the treating when you are around children.  He can still make the positive association without putting any child at risk of a bite.

If the kid is just DROPPING the treats randomly while ignoring Kenny, rather than actually GIVING him treats, that is also a safe option. 

Kennys_mom

"She said a good idea would be to take Kenny to a park and have children give him treats so that he associates children with treats. We will definitely try that."

Aurora Love:

"I hope to many yellin, screaming children isnt too much for him. Just remember that it is your job to keep Kenny safe even if that includes safe from kids who he may percieve as a threat. When the kids come up to greet Kenny you could say something like "This is Kenny, he really loves to be pet on his chest". Try to keep the kids from looming over him, reaching behind his head or latching onto him, they could do more harm then good.  Maybe before you go to a kids park you could go to a regular park, sit down and relax on a blankie so he can take in lots of sights, sounds and regular strangers. He may not ever be the kind of dog who will tolerate kids prying fingers and loud screams, I think he still needs his own safe space when he is at home when you have kids come over but I'm glad your family is on the road to a safe and happy time!"

She's given you REAL wisdom here (especially what I highlighted).

***YOU*** have to MAKE this go well.  Just going to a big park with lots of screaming kids is NOT a good idea.  do *not* do this alone -- have help.  Organize this so each child approaches singly -- you put treats in their hand and show them how to open their flat hand to Kenny so he takes them gently - no tips of fingers to 'nip'.

At parks kids tend to rush dogs -- it's not one kid politely coming up and asking.  It's four of them all screaming, giggling and rushing and pushing.

That sets Kenny up to FAIL.  **DO NOT** let it happen.

 If you have to organize something with specific people -- friends with kids who will LISTEN to you and help you, or even better, a behaviorist who will help control thigns. 

It's *very* hard to be in that situation and be able to be strong enough to put out your hand and say "STOP ... PLEASE ... we are training here, and Kenny is not always reliable.  Please stand back. "

Or ... you say "No, please do NOT pet Kenny or reach out your hand". -- and if they won't listen BEFORE it escalates you pick up your stuf and LEAVE ***fast***.

That was THE hardest thing for me with re-training Billy.  I love children and *I* had never had a situation where one of MY dogs was unreliable.  It was SO hard for me to turn a cold eye and say 'NO, please do NOT touch him ... '

Say whatever you want "He's having a bad day" or "He's tired" Or "He really doesn't like kids".  Whatever ... DO IT. 

This rests on your shoulders to be honest -- just letting kids give him treats is a recipe for disaster.  And trust me -- every single solitary NEGATIVE occurrence will set this back further than you can imagine.  But you controlling it completely ... making it happen calmly, **in control** and positively ... that helps. 

But you can totally undo everything you've accomplished by ONE **rotten** encounter where you didn't grab control and make SURE he wasn't tested beyond his ability.  These situations can turn so bad SO fast it's not funny.  Especially when you're trying to 'train' and suddenly it's like Kids, Incorporated and it's bedlam.

I'm not trying to scare you to death -- only to scare you into being VERY careful. 

mudpuppy:

it is just hard to understand kenny b/c i grew up with 3 cocker spaniels and NOT ONE of them ever reacted poorly with another child.

 

kenny's behavior is actually "normal" for the breed- they aren't well-known for tolerating young children.

 

 

....I don't think so . I had a Cocker Spaniel, and grew up with Springer Spaniels- all who were excellent with children of all ages- I think I know this breed fairly well. IMO, that statement is like saying a it's "normal" for a pittie to be dog aggressive (which I don't believe, either).

um, yeah, pitbulls are more likely to be dog aggressive than not. Cockers more likely to not-tolerate kids than to tolerate them. Why do you think people are urged to think long and hard about what breed to get before getting one? My nephew had his face removed by a cocker spaniel- his parents fault- but they are not a breed suggested for people contemplating having young children around.

Dear Kenney's Mom,

Sighhhhh we just went through this with the new Puppy. I agreed to train an almost 3 month old pup until his owner's new apartment in New York was ready.   His pedigree is very close to my own so I had no reservations when I took the challenge. Meeting him he did not want to come to me out of his travel crate but heck He'd never met me... so I was not worried.  Taking him ringside it was a very cold day and the HUbs Kept him tucked under his jacket till I could find and bring him a little coat.  Nemo is a Ridgeback, the breed we have spent our entire life together involved in.   He was cute and funny and got olong well with the other dogs.  After the weekend where the new owners met the breeder paid for him and dropped him off to us we headed home with him.... AyYi YI YI YI!!!!! I had questioned my vet about his tail set, the breeder assured me over and over  it would correct... shahhhhh and the vet said it had been broken at the base about 3-5 weeks totlally healed BUUUT.....?

Nasty little bugger, poohed and peed in his crate , bowl whatever....  had Zero clue.  Upon finally arriving home we found he was scared to Death of the Kids. ... greeeerrraaate I have 5, yes FIVE under 8 years .....  So I had to DEAL.   I watched him carefully to see which of the 5 he had the least reaction to.  Seemed calmest with 5 year old Caity so she was brought in every evening for a week plus to make him come get nibbles from her hand... she started off leaving them a few feet away and gradually had him taking them from her palm while she petted him... Major hurdle YEAH  next I took the 4 year old on several dog show trips and she was in charge of his leash and treats...  ALL of the kids Knew when They said his name or came to him They needed cookies in their pockets and a sweet tone in their voice.... The youngest still can freak him out a bit but shoot she is only two and can be rather shrill.

I NEVER leave the kids and dog alone.  Period END of subject  ... PERIOD can I make this any clearer??    Until a dog bonds to a Person young old beef chicken  they can not be trusted.    Some dogs bond quickly, some take time... This pup had been injured in the whelping box by the breeder's Teen relatives... a broken tail hurts a WHOLE bunch and RRS do not forget and forgive easily...  So everything with this pup has been about REteaching him..  Breeder said he was housebroken ....NOoooooooooo he was litter box trained .  Big Difference... Breeder thought possibly the messing every time he went in his crate was because we were in an RV   ...Ahhh Noooooooo ?? I have NEVER had a puppy mess like this.  The little guy is now 6 months old and finally FINALLY housebroken +/-     He no longer growsl when a child enters the room, or a strange adult.... and we have taken him to every softball game or sweetheart game we could .... His evening meal was gone and a big old treat jar in it's place..... All the kids flocked to the puppy and if he wanted a cookie he had to get it from a child..... Standing in front of Walmart he could hear the chaos and clatter of buggies and kids and treats ,,sweet lovely treats were his reward....

So Nemo , who you can find on my profile has a pretty optimistic future I still have about 2 + months to refine him a tad more... we are working on his CGC at the Ridgeback Rodeo end of next month.

Sadly I failed once with a dog and aggression issues, a Beautiful little girl I had bred developed a psycotic rage after Hurricane Ivan. It passed over land mere miles from our gulf Coast Home, We had profound damage , but the worst was Wicked Beth She had all the help we could find, training and medical but to No avail, she was a danger to herself and others. I will not try to recount the tears wept for her when the only option was throw her away and gamble some one else could manage her OR have her gentled.... I held her and whispered my love, assured her  she was a good girl and that we would meet her again...  Wicked Beth was a heartbreaker. Turning her away , giving her up to rescue would have put another family at risk the first time thunder rolled, as an ethical breeder I knew I had to make the Hard call and live with it.    I miss my little girl still.

Only YOU know , and trust is subjective..... Sometimes the trust is not in the Dog but In YOU to protect Them from what they can not handle....

We are the last line in the training , defense and understanding for these silent furkids.   IF WE can step up and doo the extra , extra routines, rent kids if we must ..... socialize and work or make the ulitmate choice....

I wish you the best of luck and you have my complete understanding....

Bonita of Bwana

30-50 years ago cockers were considered the *supreme* family dog -- and then over-breeding happened and changed that. 

Bad breeding and over-breeding can result in temperament changes.  It was cockers where "rage syndrome" first really came to be known -- **because** everyone was trying to breed this immensely popular dog so everyone could have one. 

30 years ago the whole concept of 'breed-related health problems' really wasn't even a concept.  And no one took the dog to the vet "annually" either!   There's been some good changes ... and some bad ones.  It's one of the reasons why there's always so much discussion on breeding for health and temperament.  We just *think* about health issues first.