NILF Help!

DPU

As I stated I think the OP and others have a better understanding now and I also do recommend the OP also read Suzanne Clothier "If A Dog's Prayers Were Answered Bones Would Rain from the Sky", since it was mentioned here.  Chapter 10 should cause some reflection and at least a self awareness of what one is doing.

I just re-read Chapter 10. Are you sure you have the right chapter? The one entitled "What I Really Meant to Say Was..."? Because I fail to see what it has to do with this discussion. It's about miscommunication between dogs and people, and not sending clear messages. It's about the all too common disconnect between what we say (No, no, bad dog!) and what our voice (high pitched and excited) and body language (pushing the dog away) are saying to the dog. How is that relevant to NILIF? Other than the part where she talks about how Dodger quickly figured out which behaviors resulted in his owner "shutting down and disengaging from him", (wouldn't that be ignoring the dog?), and which behaviors earned him "attention and praise". This was on Suzanne's recommendation, after she'd explained to Jennifer, the owner, that what she had previously been doing to keep Dodger off the table was being misread by him as a signal to play. But I don't think that was the point you were trying to make.

A more pertinent passage to the NILIF discussion would be Chapter 12, entitled "Leadership is Action", as well as the 3 articles on her website that I mentioned in an earlier post. Have you read those?

I should mention too, that one of the dogs Suzanne worked with at the seminar was a corgi named Batso who was brought in by his owner Jeff for attention barking. Delightful dog, but his bark was LOUD and SHRILL and RELENTLESS, what Suzanne referred to as a "liquifying" bark because it went through your ears right into your brain and caused it to liquify, lol!

Her advice? No, it was not to provide more attention to Batso so that his needs would be so fully satisfied that he no longer had to demand attention by barking at Jeff. It was to ignore Batso when he barked. To disengage by turning his back and completely ignoring him. And the instant Batso stopped barking, he was to immediately turn around and reward him - with food, attention, affection, whatever. And her explanation of what had caused the behavior in the first place? Because it worked! When Batso barked, Jeff paid attention to him. We all saw him do it, and we all saw him struggle NOT to do it now that it was such an ingrained habit.

At one point while Batso was still figuring out this new rule structure, he barked and barked and barked and wouldn't stop. So she told Jeff to drop his leash and walk away, to the back of the room, and to pretend to give attention to one of the dogs crated there. She stood on the leash so Batso couldn't follow. The look on his face of shock and outrage that what had previously worked so well was no longer working, that the owner that he had trained so well to attend to his every demand was now broken and disfunctional, was comical. But within a very short time, (she worked with each dog for an hour and a half to 2 hours or so), Jeff and Batso were sitting on the floor together, calm and relaxed and enjoying each other's company with NO barking. Yes, there had been momentary distress, but the new rules were clear and consistent, and the stress was long gone by the end of the session.

Cassidys Mom

A more pertinent passage to the NILIF discussion would be Chapter 12, entitled "Leadership is Action", as well as the 3 articles on her website that I mentioned in an earlier post. Have you read those?

My experiences give me a different intepretation thats all.  SC writing in 11/12 on Leadership was hard for me, I have my own view.  I don't have to totally agree with a author because I have enough self confidence to recognize that the author's writing is shaped on experiences, and I have different experiences.  To save you keyboard strokes, please don't ask me any questions because I will not be responding but only commenting on posts.  You are free to comment and represent a different view. 

Negative punishment is where a privilege or reward is removed in order to cause a behavior to decrease. For example, Shadow's mouthing. I would curl my hand away and turn away, taking direct attention with my eyes away from him. Peripherally, I could see when he would quit the attempt to mouth, at which point, I would turn back and give him attention. At that point, it is become positive reinforcement, a reward for the behavior known as NOT mouthing. It helps me to view everything a dog does as an offered behavior. Punishment does not train, it stops. Reinforcement trains. If the withholding of attention in my example were later viewed by Shadow as an irritant then his cessation of mouthing is negative reinforcement in action, where the offered behavior not mouthing prevents the irritant of withholding attention. And it is no more cruel than letting dogs correct each other, as that will produce stress, too. Life is stress, to some degree. Dogs do what works and seek some equilibrium where they have stable emotional states. They also seek to acquire resources, which brings knowledge that they live another day.

ron2

Negative punishment is where a privilege or reward is removed in order to cause a behavior to decrease.

This is straight from the text book and the example is also a text book example.  The definition implies the privilege or reward is present and then is removed. Is there any form of Punishment in these 6 scenarios from the dog's perspective.  It is a GIVEN the dog owner is acting for appropiate reason.

The dog has the privilege or reward and then offers inappropiate behavior.  The dog owner takes the priviilege or reward away.

The dog has the privilege or reward and then continues to offer appropiate behavior.  The dog owner takes the priviilege or reward away.

The dog request the privilege or reward and offers appropiate behavior.  The dog owner denies the request.

The dog request the privilege or reward and offers inappropiate behavior.  The dog owner denies the request.

The dog owner observes the dog's intention is to request the privilege or reward and past behavior pattern have always been unacceptable.  The dog owner tell the dog to SIT.

The dog owner observes the dog's intention is to request the privilege or reward and past behavior pattern have always been unacceptable.  The dog owner grants the privilege or reward before the behavior starts.

No, the dog acts appropriately, dog gets reward.  That's the was it should be being done.  This is not training commands where you taper off the treats after awhile.

DPU

The dog has the privilege or reward and then offers inappropiate behavior.  The dog owner takes the priviilege or reward away.

Negative punishment.

DPU

The dog has the privilege or reward and then continues to offer appropiate behavior.  The dog owner takes the priviilege or reward away.

Is this your example of end of training? When you say the owner takes the privilege away, is a direct removal, as one would do in the first example, which is negative punishmentThe dog request the privilege or reward and offers appropiate behavior.  The dog owner denies the request.

DPU

The dog request the privilege or reward and offers appropiate behavior.  The dog owner denies the request.

I am making a sandwich to take to work and Shadow wants a piece of lunchmeat and sits and I don't give him one, does that fit this scenario? The sit command still works from the times I requested and rewarded it. This is a case of him trying to beg for food and if give it, it is rewarding, if I don't it is not rewarding but it is not me removing a reward or privilege from the scene. The lunchmeat is not automatically his to begin with. Dogs do what works. It's analagous to a dog that hunts in a particular patch for mice. When he no longer smells the mouse scent there, he quits going there, not necessarily because the lack of mouse scent is punishment but because the effort expended is useless.

DPU

The dog request the privilege or reward and offers inappropiate behavior.  The dog owner denies the request.

It might be the owner exercising negative punishment for bumping or jumping to get at the lunchmeat. Or it might be the owner doesn't give out lunchmeat, period. Needs more details.

DPU

The dog owner observes the dog's intention is to request the privilege or reward and past behavior pattern have always been unacceptable.  The dog owner tell the dog to SIT.

With an implied reward, if we are still in the training mode. The owner is leading the dog to a rewardable behavior.

DPU

The dog owner observes the dog's intention is to request the privilege or reward and past behavior pattern have always been unacceptable.  The dog owner grants the privilege or reward before the behavior starts.

First, how do you grant the reward before the behavior starts if you are seeing the signs of the inappropriate behavior? I are confused. However, theoretically, whatever the dog is doing before the bad behavior is what is likely to be reinforced. Dogs do what works.

 I'd respond, but I have no idea what DPU is talking about.