Getting Close to My Wits End

The problem with those board and train places is they may train your dog but they won't train you. Dog training really isn't so much about the dog--it's actually about opening up a line of communication between you and the dog, and you kind of have to be there to learn how to do that. PetSmarts usually don't have the greatest trainers so I'm not surprised you were underwhelmed by that class. Find an actual dog training center that focuses on positive training and find a teacher with many many years of experience training all kinds of dogs of all levels.

An additional problem with the board and train is this: I have a pretty well trained dog (well, I have two) and we took him with us to visit family over the holidays. Our nephew is 9 and doesn't have a dog of his own but he loves our dogs. He followed our dog around all weekend giving him commands (because what 9 year old could resist having someone to boss around for once?) and our dog occaisionally complied, but not that often. Why? Because my husband and I trained him and he responds best to us--our tone of voice, our way of using the hand signals, our body posture and way of standing. If we were standing behind our nephew, all we had to do was look at Conrad a certain way when the nephew gave the command and he'd comply. But if we were not around or didn't feel like participating, Conrad would just look at the boy like "Huh? I can't understand you, what are you trying to tell me?" I would never want someone else training one of my dogs for that reason alone.

Also, if you board and train, who's to say the trainers aren't kicking the crap out of your dog on a daily basis in order to 'train' it? You're not there, you won't know for sure. That is how some people feel dogs should be trained and lie about it because they know that most dog owners don't find that acceptable.

Frankly, it just sounds like you're convinced that your dog is just dumb and bad.

ORIGINAL: jones

Is your dog low to the ground when she does it, or walking normally?

 
She is squatting the entire time, but will walk away while squatting.  If I walk towards her is when she will roll over on her back.
 

ORIGINAL: houndlove
 
Dog training really isn't so much about the dog--it's actually about opening up a line of communication between you and the dog
 
Frankly, it just sounds like you're convinced that your dog is just dumb and bad.

 
I can definitely see the point of being involved with the dog's training.  I was a meter reader for years and noticed how a lot of dogs won't work off of the word alone but also depend on  a visual cue.  There was a weimeriner that I used to have to go in on, and always told him to sit and stay and would never listen.  Once I saw the owner do it with the finger snap, I mimicked what she did and the dog would listen.  So I do know how there could be a missing link in the training.
 
I do not think my dog is either dumb or bad.  Yes, she is the only dog I have ever had that been so anti-training.  She just always seems to have no interest in it.  Food treats, praises, and clicking noises have not been accepted as a reward from her.  Her main concern is getting it done with, and she will do what you ask, just so she can stop training.  I have never had a dog that hasn't been the A-Class pooch.  All of my few previous dogs were caring, loving and never acted scared of me or anyone else.  I'm sure dogs are like people and respond to different things.  That's why I'm looking for other remedies.
 
If I truly thought she was "bad and dumb" I wouldn't waste my time, money or effort into fixing something that can't be fixed.

I think she needs to see a vet - sounds like she has incontinence or an infection.
 
I also think you are crating her for too long.  Personally I really do not think that crates are suitable for enclosing the dog for more than 2 hours (and even then only if they are asleep) except at night.  I know a lot of people will disagree, but I suspect if your dog could talk she wouldn't.  I think JM is right.  You need to work on the sep. anx. as much as (if not more) than the peeing issue.

She is squatting the entire time, but will walk away while squatting. If I walk towards her is when she will roll over on her back.

 
Ah - okay - that is definitely submissive, rather dramatically so I would say. Did you get this dog as a puppy or was she adopted?
 
For the crate/leash problem, have you tried opening the door w/out eye contact and just walking away and letting her come out? IMO that's really the best way to avoid her submissively urinating... maybe you could try putting the crate on a wipeable surface - in the bathroom or kitchen. Don't approach your dog at all - let her come to you. This dog sounds extremely submissive and even fearful of you... that is likely why she is not responding to training at all.

I've had submissive peeing problem with my dog - especially when he was a pup and I was house-training him. He still does it once in a while.

Even staring at him with that "Aha! Don't even think about peeing here" look made him squat down and pee. I couldn't even look at him to say hi. So, every-time I'd come home, I'd say "Outside!" in a happy voice (as I am opening the crate), and I won't even look at him. He'd race to the garden like a crazy man.

If it is submissive urination, you have to interact with your dog with a certain level of finesse - too much prize will encourage urination, not enough assurance will also lower his confidence level.

ORIGINAL: Chuffy

I also think you are crating her for too long.  Personally I really do not think that crates are suitable for enclosing the dog for more than 2 hours (and even then only if they are asleep) except at night.  I know a lot of people will disagree, but I suspect if your dog could talk she wouldn't.  I think JM is right.  You need to work on the sep. anx. as much as (if not more) than the peeing issue.

 
I don't think it's possible for many people to limit their dog to 2 hours or less in a crate.  If you work, you will usually have to have 4 or 5 hours at a time.
 
In my experience, if you give them enough attention and excercise before and after, the crate isn't a problem.
 
To the original poster:
 
For what it's worth, I this sounds like submissive urination to me.  I think it'll go away if the dog is ignored for a few minutes after you get home.  I'd try to leave her in the crate for a few minutes - maybe while you change clothes or do some other routine task.  That'll give her a chance to get used to the ideal of you being home. 

I think its a good idea to confine a dog to a secure, dog proof, easily cleaned area if you are out for several hours, I just don't think the crate is the best place to do this.  I think its fine to crate at night (potentially eight hours), which is what I've done with all new dogs in our house, but to crate additionally for 5hr stretches in the day seems like too much to me. 

I have some major issues with leaving my dogs home alone and uncrated.  First and foremost is fire safety.  The local station knows exactly where I keep the crates, they know that the dogs, and their teeth, are safely crated and they will do their darndest to save them in the event of a fire.  I've made it easy for them by placing crates near enough a sliding door to just drag crates out and away from the house.  I have a fire alarm......not a burgler alarm, but a fire alarm.
 
I have six german shepherds who sometimes decide that furniture is nothing more than a giant stuffy.  I've lost a few things to their jaws of destruction.  And there is NO telling when someone *might* get a wild hair and start crap.  If that happens when I'm home a simple "eh eh" or that will do, takes care of it.  However, if I'm NOT home, it could easily escalate to something bloody and violent.....and if two are going at it, the others are gonna take sides and jump in......
 
The only dog I can trust 1000% is Tyler.  When he is left out of the crate he's told to "lay down and be a good boy" and judging from the beeline he makes for the water when I come home, he hasn't left the couch the entire time I've been gone.
 
At bedtime four of my dogs head for crates.  They are not made to go to their crates, nor are the doors ever latched, but they CHOOSE to go to their crates, despite having been in them for sometimes 8 plus hours per day.

Okay everyone.  I've been working on something that's been working wonders for me recently.  I have bought one of the slip on leash/collar combos.  No matter how long she was out playing or hanging out she would still pee when I would reach down to attach the leash.  With the slip on, I'm able to drop it right on to her without a problem.  There's no being scared or any problems at all.  I just open the crate door and when she comes to the front door to go outside, I do it cowboy style and lasso her up.
 
As far as keeping the dog in the crate, 2 hours is really pushing it.  I do not know a single person that would be able to go home every two hours.  I've tried keeping her in a confined room before, but there's always something she will find to chew on.  I think she likes the crate.  Any time she's not actively playing with us, she will go back inside her crate.  She has seemed a lot more confident in herself since she has gotten used to the crate.

I crate for the work day--8 or 9 hours. A lot of people do. If it weren't for the ability to crate while the humans are away from home, a lot more dogs would be meeting their untimely deaths at shelters.

You just have to crate-train appropriately and make sure the dog is old enough to be able to physically hold it for that long.

Do NOT board and train a frightened dog with some person who may use corrective methods - your dog will get much, much worse.
This dog sounds like a very anxious dog, indeed, possibly with the beginnings of separation anxiety.  Besides, unless you learn how to manage the dog yourself, the problem will just return when the dog comes home.  Have you considered taking a class with your dog?
These sites have trainer lists:
www.clickertraining.com
www.peaceablepaws.com
www.apdt.com
The book you need is "I'll be Home Soon" by Patricia McConnell.  Surround her crate with an exercise pen and bed that area with pee pads.  When you get home, wait about five minutes before you interact with her.  Instead of reaching for her to leash her, just open the door, ignore her and gently kneel beside her to put on the leash once she quiets down. The pee pads will absorb any accidents, which, at this point, you should ignore.  Just calmly take her outside, let her finish her business, and THEN, reward and greet her with a few quiet pats. 
Another book you might want "The Cautious Canine" and "Help for Your Shy Dog".  These are all available at dogwise.com.  Not very costly.

A vet check is always a good idea. I also agree it is probably submissive urination. And yes, a dog can dribble along, pee just a bit, or dump their entire bladder.

Your dog is most likely of a more sensitive nature, has become insecure, or is intimidated by you. Or, all three.

If you (or anyone else she lives with) have ever physically punished the dog (especially unfairly), yelled at the dog, acted angry or unpredictable around the dog...this can add to the problem. Submissive urination is a signal from a subordinant animal to a dominant animal of "You are the boss, please don't hurt me, I am just a baby, etc...).

Anger and frustration are read by a dog as "unstable" human. They don't understand this level of emotional display in us. IMO

I recommend taking pressure of your dog's need to send this signal to you. Do not approach this dog head-on. Turn your body to the side and please, don't stare at her. Keep your body loose and relaxed. If you can get the crate open and get her to follow you by using a "playful" body language, this will help. Face the same direction as the dog as much as possible. And above all, watch your facial expressions and vocal tones. Keep them serene and low key.

Don't grin, stare at her, or reach for her.

You need to take away this dog's need to send you this submissive signal, boost her confidence, and help her see that coming out of the crate and being with you, is a good thing.

This should gradually get better if you work on how you are interacting with your dog.

Good luck.