first socialization attempt did not go well

Well today we had 2 steps forward and 2 steps back.  Went to a park, and walked by people, dogs, kids, people playing basketball, kids on swings without incident.  I kept giving Zack treats every time we passed one of these things and he ignored them.  yay!!!  Then, for the step back.  I was taking both dogs out to go potty.  I saw a man come out of his front door, and in the past Zack would have gone crazy barking.  But this time, he didn't.  So I thought, success!!  Then the man starts calling to me from the across the street, asking me what breed of dog Zack is.  At this point, Zoe starts barking and lunging at him and the neighbor couldn't hear me over all the racket.  To avoid being blatantly rude I had to step a little closer so he could hear me. Zack was pulling towards him looking like he wanted to meet the man.  So I let him (stupid!) and he sniffed his leg and the man bent down to pat him on the head adn Zack started barking.  Now I had 2 dogs barking and lunging uncontrollably.  It was so embarassing!!  Now I live in a neighborhood where there are lots and lots of dogs.  And I've never walked by a dog who started barking and lunging at me.  Why are mine so reactive?  I'm probably the only person in the neigbhorhood who knows anything about socialization, NILIF or obedience training and I have the worst behaved dogs in the neighborhood when they are in public.  I just don't get what I am doing wrong 

kelliope

Sounds like it might be possible that Zoe taught Zack this behavior?

Zack exhibited the behavior from the very beginning, before he saw Zoe do it.  But I'm sure Zoe's reactivity isn't helping matters.

jenns

I guess you guys are right, it was probably too much too soon.  When you do a public place like the parking lot thing, how do you keep people, especially kids, from running up to your dog and wanting to pet them?

I think that's why the suggestion was made that you aren't there to shop;-)  When I go out in public with a nervous dog, I take Easy Cheese or squeeze peanut butter with me.  Most dogs will take a bit of that from your fingers or the tube, and you can sit there and just keep letting the dog lap while the people, carts, dogs, and joggers go by.  All you are doing is convincing the dog that when ......... goes by, comes near, or appears, good stuff begins to happen.  Trainers call it "open bar, closed bar".  When the scary thing appears, the bar opens - when it disappears, the bar closes.  The dog begins to wish for that scary thing to appear LOL.
 

jenns

It was so embarassing!!  Now I live in a neighborhood where there are lots and lots of dogs.  And I've never walked by a dog who started barking and lunging at me.  Why are mine so reactive?  I'm probably the only person in the neigbhorhood who knows anything about socialization, NILIF or obedience training and I have the worst behaved dogs in the neighborhood when they are in public.  I just don't get what I am doing wrong 

Don't get discouraged!  It mostly is one step forward one back.  It probably will always be a work in progress.  I hate to say it but sometimes our choice of dog can have a lot to do with success or failure - little dogs can often be more reactive and fear aggressive.  They can feel threatened more easily and it can be tough to work on it because they can also be more sensitive than other dogs.  Terriers are usually the exception.  I have Chi's and they are skittish.  I made some mistakes when I first got them trying to socialize them and they got overwhelmed and more scared.  They also got bowled over and hurt by some big off leash dogs (I followed the rules about not picking them up when a loose dog approached) and the little one became leash reactive due to her fear.

Now she is much better, but I think she will always have some reactivity if I'm not careful - especially since the loose dog thing is such a problem. 

It just takes time.  It can be embarrasing but I do remember an episode of Cesar where he said "don't be embarrassed, just tell people you are rehabilitating your dog.  People understand"  I have tried to take that approach and it has really helped MY fears and embarrassment and as a result probably helped my dogs feel more comfortable.

One more thing, I usually tell people who are approaching me that my dog is a rescue and a little scared and to not try to pet him - even before they get close enough to try to pet him or grab him.  He is much better and actually doesn't mind people petting him anymore, but I've found telling people that anyway is helpful.  Surprisingly most people still might try to pet him (despite my asking them not to) but their approach is different and slower.  So it keeps my dog from getting scared by people being too overly friendly to him.  He just likes things to be slower and calmer so he doesn't get overwhelmed or scared.

spiritdogs

I think that's why the suggestion was made that you aren't there to shop;-)  When I go out in public with a nervous dog, I take Easy Cheese or squeeze peanut butter with me.  Most dogs will take a bit of that from your fingers or the tube, and you can sit there and just keep letting the dog lap while the people, carts, dogs, and joggers go by.  All you are doing is convincing the dog that when ......... goes by, comes near, or appears, good stuff begins to happen.  Trainers call it "open bar, closed bar".  When the scary thing appears, the bar opens - when it disappears, the bar closes.  The dog begins to wish for that scary thing to appear LOL.

This is pretty much what I've been doing it is working very well in public places when there are lots of people.  The problem now seems to be on walks when one or two people walk by at a time.

kelliope

I hate to say it but sometimes our choice of dog can have a lot to do with success or failure - little dogs can often be more reactive and fear aggressive.  They can feel threatened more easily and it can be tough to work on it because they can also be more sensitive than other dogs.  Terriers are usually the exception.  I have Chi's and they are skittish.  I made some mistakes when I first got them trying to socialize them and they got overwhelmed and more scared.  They also got bowled over and hurt by some big off leash dogs (I followed the rules about not picking them up when a loose dog approached) and the little one became leash reactive due to her fear.

I am so glad you said this!  I often read, on here and other places, about how the reason that small dogs are reactive is because their owners do not bother to train or socialize them.  That is obviously not the case, especially with me.  I guess that is why I am so confused as to why this is happening, especially since neither of my dogs is a rescue that needs rehabilitation.  Both of my dogs are small, active and alert and sensitive to their environment and both have "wary of strangers" in their breed discription.  I guess trainng and socialization are not going to erase ingrained breed characterists like some sources would make you think.

kelliope

It just takes time.  It can be embarrasing but I do remember an episode of Cesar where he said "don't be embarrassed, just tell people you are rehabilitating your dog.  People understand"  I have tried to take that approach and it has really helped MY fears and embarrassment and as a result probably helped my dogs feel more comfortable.

This is a great word track, I'll definitely use it.  Sometimes though, if the person is close enough for me to say that, then it is too late already at this point.  And its hard to always keep a distance from people.  I live in a townhouse complex and just taking the dogs out to potty involves a good chance that someone will be close by unexpectedly.  At this point, if I can't have strangers petting them then that's fine, I just want to get to a point where they are acting like cujo every time someone walks by!

You'll get there!  It's been over a year for me and it's still a work in progress, though most people who meet us don't even know its a problem anymore.

Yes, I agree - most people act like little dogs who are reactive were "babied" by their owners or somehow the owners are at fault.  It's tough to own the average small breed dog sometimes.  Just don't take it personally - you will get there - it just takes time.  A long time!

Just look at it as a learning experience.  You will be quite the dog trainer by the time you are done!

My Chi's and I...we are in your corner rooting you on!