dog-dog aggression and pack situations (update 4-11)

If you get the assurances you need from this person (insurance and whatever else) - I think it sounds like a great opportunity...  I would only say that you will need to figure out how to transfer it to other dogs and other situations... 

Sounds to me like Maggie's problems are mostly with rude dogs - she just reacts more assertively than you would like her to (you want her to ignore the charging dog and she gets apprehensive so she charges or gets snarky)...  If this pack she is going to work with doesn't have this type of dog in it - and Maggie is off-leash when she interacts with them (as opposed to on-leash when she is being charged by strange dogs when you guys are out) - I am not sure how transferable the lessons will be. 

I would also pay attention to the difference between how she learns to integrate herself into a strange pask v. how she deals with a strange dog trying to play with her/integrate into her pack (very different, and several people noted - in the first case, she is in the weakest position, and it is unlikely she will pick fights, in the latter, she may have a bunch more confidencce, which may lead her to be more of a bully)...

My personal experiences with this type of thing have been great - my trainer boards dogs for his clients when they are away.  Wesley stays with him, his pack and whichever other dogs happen to be there at the time, often.  With proper introducions and supervision, he happily co-exists with all the dogs (many of whom I would think he could NEVER get along with - like un-neutered males - of which my trainer has 2 and Wesley, who has been known to throw himslef into a complete fit around an un-neutered male, can lie down in the back of a jeep with them).  He has learned, basically, that regardless of who was there first, if he is joining a group that was already there, or a new dog joins the group he is already a part of - he has two choices - politely ignore, or be friendly - there is no inappropriate snarking allowed - period.  Hey, I wish I could provide whatever it is that allows Wesley to stabilize to that extent (with me - he is pretty good with most dogs, but has certainly been know to snark at times)...  I can't but there are those who can - and I would highly recommend working with someone like that...

I guess I just don't want to have to be thrown into a reactive position when other people can't be bothered to leash their dogs.  Right now we run into about 1-3 off leash and charging dogs per week - this means I have to let Z fend for herself while I grab Maggie and keep her pinned to me with hand over her muzzle until the off lead dog goes away.  It's not fun for anyone, but in those situations there's little else I can do.

Ideally Maggie would somehow be transformed into a dog park dog so she could actually get off lead exercise as those are the only safe places around here to do so, but I don't really expect that from just a few days in a large group.  :)

I at one point just said to myself that she was at a point I was comfortable with since she generally wouldn't have to interact with other dogs directly, I had plenty of off lead exercise options, and she had some good dog friends, but since the move last June all that has changed and it's really spurred me to look for new opportunities like this one.

I really appreciate the additional insights.  Schleide your post was especially beneficial because you had so much detail and some really good points about things to watch.  Thanks!

I think it's perfectly normal for a dog to get snarly about having a strange dog rudely charge into her face.  If a strange man came barreling up to you and gave you a big smacking kiss and hug you'd probably snarl and yell too. It's the rude dogs and their owners who need to go hang out with this rehab pack so the rude dogs can learn some manners.

Snarky is one thing, all out trying to bite another dog when they approach is not ok in my book, especially when she goes "on guard" at about 10-15 feet if the dog expresses interest in approaching her.  If she just snarked, I'd have no problem with it, but if given the chance she will grab the other dog and won't let go unless I pull her off.  Granted she uses good inhibition and doesn't draw blood and it's not every dog, but it's still not acceptable behavior.

I think you can definitely work with her to decrease this reaction - which I agree is not ok (I also agree that it is the other dogs who are being rude and the other owners who are at fault for allowing their off leash dogs to charge a leashed dog - but, we cannot control the behavior of others - so we have to work with our own dogs...)

But, keep in mind that this being the main problem, it will require work under this type of circumstances - and although you might get some transfer from off leash work with a pack of strange dogs - dog-dog aggression and leash reactivity are two different things...  Or, maybe better put, many dogs who are leash reactive are fine off leash or at least much less reactive...

 Get some Spray Shield.  It works at a distance, so the rude unleashed dog may not get close enough to get snarked at.

You know I had just been thinking about that lol - unfortunately I'm hesitant to do anything to someone's dog since I had that crazy lady go after me just for asking her to leash her two cockers and most of these dogs have owners nearby, just not in control.  Do you know what the range is for the canister? 

Not sure exactly.  It's sort of like the wasp spray that will get to the eaves of your house so you don't have to get near the nest. 

UPDATE: the opportunity I thought I was going to have has fallen through. :( Guess we're back to working on things as best we can with what we've got.

On the plus side I reevaluated what I was doing when we are approached and have changed my responses and in doing so have seen a marked difference in Maggie's reactions.   I inadvertantly had fallen back into old reactive patterns involving tensing up on and shortening the leash, grabbing at my dog, etc. and when I finally realized what I was doing and instead started to loosen the lead, step in front of my dog, use *my* body language to get the dog to go away, and talked in a happy voice, suddenly my dog relaxed.  Amazing stuff isn't it?   Just last week we had a basset mix follow us for most of our walk and with my body language and such he stayed at a 20ft distance and Maggie ignored him completely after only about 1-2 mins of walking with him following us! Plus I was much more relaxed and didn't get the huge adrenaline rush I did previously.

Now to keep myself from slipping into my rut again!

Good to hear you're finding your way on your own.

If it's any help, the behaviour you describe is something I've seen in a lot of cattle dogs. They are the most fierecly loyal breed I have ever met. If they perceive a threat to you, they'll take it down. They were bred to be the kind of dog that would get between an angry bull and their owner and harry the bull back. They're also an intense breed, like BCs, and can very easily get carried away. I once knew a BC cattle mix (more BC than cattle) that had been taught to 'sick' other dogs on command. Long after the kids that taught her that lost interest in her, she would still attack any dog that came near her when she was with a person, no matter who they were. She'd slink off when you shouted at her and told her to go home, but she'd still default to attack every time another dog came near. Otherwise, though, she was the sweetest, most submissive dog. Not even years of brutal teasing that turned other dogs vicious could dent her beautiful nature. I don't for a moment think she guarded people as a resource because she needed leadership. She was never happier than when you were running her through all the commands she knew. She was rock solid on sit and shake hands and up, and you could probably count the training sessions she'd had on one hand.

Have you tried a long line with her at the dog park? Something really long that gives you a lot of time to grab the rope if she takes off.

Another thing you could try is giving her a job to do. That kind of dog thrives if they know what they are meant to do. For example, if she starts getting bothered by another dog, tell her to sit or down or go get her ball or something like that. 

stardog85

You know I had just been thinking about that lol - unfortunately I'm hesitant to do anything to someone's dog since I had that crazy lady go after me just for asking her to leash her two cockers and most of these dogs have owners nearby, just not in control.  Do you know what the range is for the canister? 

Probably good enough to keep the crazy lady at bay.